vrijdag, april 19, 2024

The ultimate network

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    • #197230
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      I think Ethernet is the most difficult thing to deal with when combined with a high end audio system. I like to make a few statements to start with

      1. The ethernet system should be fed by the very best powersupplies

      2. A noisy ethernet signal will make the sound quality decrease

      3. A to stable and clean ethernet signal will make the sound quality decrease as well

      4. Lesser ethernet devices will make it more easy to find the perfect balance

      5. Ethernet cables quality is not that important in a high grade ethernet system

      6. It’s not possible to review an ethernet system before it’s up and running for 48 hours

       

    • #197232
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      7. Realy stable clocks should be avoided (when the network is aready high grade)

    • #197233
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      I think these statements will cover the complete path to understanding. How to create the ultimate ethernet system.

      In the past 3 years I addressed a problem with my system. I had dark sound and my system was not satisfying for the tiniest bit. I worked on it as a second job… almost 8 hours a day and it caused me many nights. Frustration levels reached the top of a mountain. In total I have tested literally more than 200 situations. Which made me conclude that the manufacturers were not able to set us on the right path yet. This actually is pretty logical, because they do not build equipment to create the ultimate network. They create equipment to deal with a noisy network.

      The average audiophile probably will be aware that ethernet is an important aspect for the quality of streaming audio. When adding just a high grade switch, cable or a powersupply. Then most of the time this will help to get a better sound. When the sound is still better after 48 hours then I would say that your ethernet system is not on the edge of what is possible.

    • #197236
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Is there some way to share a few scope images here? Or should I go to a forum group for this?

    • #197241
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Well maybe some pictures can be added later. With my current network I can outperform my internal SSD with an internet stream. To do this I split my network in 2. The first part is from the internet connection directly to my PC’s mainbord ethernet connection. And the second part is from the PC’s Jcat Net Card XE directly to my streamer DAC. The internet fiber converter (WAN) is fed by a Farad Super 3 powersupply with a QSA fuse. The router is a semi professional one (without Wifi) from Draytek. In which I drilled a hole for an external DC connection. The Draytek is Fed by a 12V Farad Super 10. Then the second part, the Jcat is Fed by a Farad Super 10 as well. The Super 10’s are switched in floating mode which means the DC side is floating from ground, but the external housing is connected with ground and also connected with the Router and the Jcat.

      And now comes the fun part 🙂

      The network is as simple as can be and fed by high grade power supplies. The sound of the audio system became dark in only 1 hour. So it seemed the signal is too clean and the crystals synchronized almost immediately. What I did then was, I added a spare switch to the network from which the only connection was to the router. I used the stock powersupply for the switch. The idea was to inject noise into the router, in other words to destabilize the routers crystal. Immediately the sound cleared up. After this I gave it a few hours and it seemed it was not enough yet. So I connected a computer to the switch and now the sound cleared up completely.

      I think the result can be explained best with a metaphor. It was as if a high grade 8K television had almost no contrast at all, details were kept hidden. There was almost no backlight and the picture was dark. After I connected the switch to inject noise into the router the television reached Full HD immediately. After I connected the computer with the switch the television reached ultimate pictures and showed it is a true 8K television with mind blowing detail.

      The best switch for the Job seemed to be A D’link DGS108. This switch measured the strongest crystal signal. Higher voltage then other switches. Higher voltage logically means higher noise.

    • #197251
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      Hi,

      I wrote a reply 4 times , but when I paste a link everything dissappears. Sorry I give up.

      • #197261
        paul vdwpaul vdw
        Deelnemer

        I fully agree with points 1, 2, and 4, but I completely disagree with points 3, 5, and 7

        Point 6 ;How about stating it as: “Rather than improving in mere hours, it’s expected to enhance over the course of days.”

         

         

         

        • #197263
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Hi Paul,

          Well let’s find out about point 3, 5 and 7

          About point 6, my experience is that it always start good, but when the crystals seem to synchronize the sound ‘collapses’

          But I like your statement line better 🙂

           

          Point 3, is the one I’ve been puzzling on for 3 years now. I had a Pink Faun X2.16 streamer with 3 Ultra OXCO clocks inside. At that point I was still using my old NAD M12 modified with 2 Pink Faun clocks. One Audioclock and one Clock on the BluOS module. I also replaced the 2 power supplies by two Farads Super 3’s. One 24Vdc and one 5Vdc.

          The problem was that new devices, new cables always sounded great, but after 3 day’s the sound always became dull. From that point the search began. I replaced my cabling, my power blocks, modified the streamer over and over, replaced power supplies and drilled a new ground electrode. Replaced my Dac 2 times. And after that I found out it was the ethernet which caused all the trouble. Not at once, but in day’s.

          Last year I modified a switch with an Ultra OCXO clock with incredible results, but after 48 hours the sound was more dead than alive. The interesting part is that it takes 48 hours as well for the clock to stabilize. In other words the more it stabilized the worse the sound. Of course the switch itself was not the problem. The problem is that other ethernet devices seemed to synchronize more and more to this Ultra clock.</p>

        • #197271
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          About point 5 ethernet cables. I must say that I was convinced for more than a decade. That the quality of ethernet cables are very important for high end audio systems. I think that I wrote over 500 articles on the PS audio forums back in 2o12 and also more than a few back in 2015 on the Alpha Audio website. I tested and bought really high grade cables in the past and they did make a clear difference, but in the past few years I also found out that when an ethernet system is tuned to the max. That the difference in cabling will be still there, but I can’t say I like high grade cables over normal cables any longer. Actually normal cables sound more neutral than

          • #197272
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Wijnand, what i don´t understand is that you seem to have a computer device physically connected in your signal chain? In my opinion you are never going to get to a real low noise floor as long as you have that.

            A good audio streamer has amazingly low internal noise floor potential that most people ruin the moment they start hooking up gears/cables to it. If you just make sure that the incoming ethernet signal is VERY clean and use a good PS (as you stated) then a good audio streamer will be able to keep that low noise floor and send a clean signal to your DAC. Note that you must use the mobile device to remote control the audio streamer!

            In my opinion no additional clocking, or other “mumbo-jumbo” 🙂 is then needed. The challenge is to understand how to lower that ethernet signal noise floor. A passive filter, like the Networks Accoustics Muon Pro streaming systems prove that it is actually quite simple.

            • #197275
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Hi Tobias, Thanks! and yes of course I understand what you’re telling me. The reason I connected the PC was because my network was in trouble. The only thing in my network was a router fed by an ultra clean powersupply. I also made scope pictures back in 2020 which made clear the data stream was very clean. Jcat with Pink Faun Ultra clock in Pink Faun streamer

            • #197276
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              In addition to the above, the more I cleaned up the stream, the more trouble seemed to appear. Normally I would say if noise is the problem then it must be audible immediately. It should not take a few days to get effect. With crystals it’s another thing they can slowly synchronize to other crystals. And this seems to be the problem when a stream became to clean. I think that is the problem I’m facing.

            • #197277
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Here’s also a picture from a router on a switching powersupply for the comparison with the aboveRouter signal with SPS

      • #197266
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Yes, I had that as well the first few times. Now I copy my text into a text file

        • #197278
          TobiasTobias
          Deelnemer

          Ok, cool. But that is usually not enough to lower the noise floor since the router it self is usually to noisy, even with a good power supply. The forums are exploding with people that physically disconnect their ethernet line by introducing WiFi extened/repleater. Some of these models can achieve and very low noise floor output, if having a really good power supply/battery. This is the route i took and it proved to be much better, even if cheaper and simpler. I can strongly recommend this site that has learnt me a lot. https://ethernet-sound.com/

          They do measurements also. You need to use the browser translate function maybe.

          I pushed the wrong Reply button so now this was not in context with your comment… I failed to move this comment also… 🙂

          • #197281
            WijnandWijnand
            Deelnemer

            I will look into it for sure thanks for the link. However I don’t use Wifi at all. About the batteries I once did a test with a Wavelet Dac of a friend. I had a few 18650 cells from Sanyo Li-Ion. And also from panasonic. For the comparison I created a Mosfet 12Vdc powersupply. I must say it was a close call, but the powersupply came on top in a blind test. After this test I have used the batteries in my network for a while and disconnected the chargers when listening. It was pretty good and cheaper than a good powersupply. But then there was Farad.

            Are you familiar with the noise floor of a battery? Farad power supplies are lab tested and have a significant lower noise floor than a battery. A few companies that used batteries for testing sensitive equipment switched over to use Farad Super 3’s for even better results. Not to mention the Super 10’s

            The wrong reply button happened to me as well in another thread 🙂

            • #197285
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              My comment got lost… annoying.

              A lot has happened just in the last months in this space. Ian Canada battery modules are great for usage in the digital domain, which they test there. In my opinion they are spot-on on that forum. I use their suggested WiFi extenders, Ian Canada Battery PS but the best hidden secret is that ethernet throttle cable!

            • #197286
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I just built the Ferriet core solution for that last meter ethernet. I hear a difference 🙂

            • #197287
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              best thing since sliced bread!

            • #197288
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              About the Wifi extenders. As I mentioned I don’t use Wifi in the first place, because I lived near a 4G transmitter until I became hypersensitive to radiation. So I can’t use that. Besides this I think the lack of Wifi in my situation could be the reason I have trouble with my ethernet. As I mentioned, adding noise to my ethernet system prevents crystal sync. Probably the distortion of Wifi radiation could do that same trick.

              Reviewing an ethernet system became very difficult, because what is happening. Is it the signal and the sound that became better due to a powersupply. Or is it the other way around is it the signal that became better and crystal sinc made the sound worse. Adding Wifi could make the signal worse but also unsinc crystals with the end result better sound. The question is what do we review when it comes to a certain balance.

            • #197290
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              My opinion is that the only thing that matters is the noise floor in the DAC. Everything else is irrelevant. The challange is how to get to that low noise floor.

              I was skeptical about having a WiFi extender next to my streamer since all i could see was that it radiates noise. But for some reason it seem to work. This is mainly not my own conclusions but rather numerous of people that has replaced VERY expensive ethernet stuff with this simpler setup.

              If you can´t use the WiFi part then maybe fiber can be a similar (breaking the noisy connection) but from what i read you always come to a point where that fiber signal needs to be converted back to “ethernet” again (or whatever it is called), which caused noise when converting that signal.

            • #197292
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              That the noise floor in the dac would be the only thing that matters can’t be true in my opinion. I think the shape of the bits is an important factor as well. These bits are actually analog sine waves representing 1 and 0’s. When they are buffered they seem to keep the shape they are in. When we take away the connection to the dac and play the buffer from that point the sound will be as worse as it was. This is something we were trying to solve back in 2012 when I was a beta tester for the PS audio PWD2. They had built a buffer so the DAC would always play from the buffer and ethernet noise wouldn’t be a problem any longer, unfortunately it didn’t work.

            • #197295
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              This view has changed only recently and all the older theories are now thrown away, as i see it. Try explaining why the Network Accoustic Muon Pro Streaming System seem to solve all problem, more or less. It is just a passive filtering that makes the DAC sing like never before. In my opinion Hans Beekhuyzen has already explained it all here: https://youtu.be/ZCFvIzzMqfk?si=dK6BfzjG-uY-bmh_

            • #197293
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              About the wifi extender. I believe they work for sure. I know some people that use them as well. But the question is what is the reason they work. I think one does not have to deal with crystal sync, because the signal is clockwise tapping not as strong as a datastream through a cable. Maybe that is the reason people think it’s the best solution, but I like to find out why 🙂

            • #197297
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              No, they work because they are separated from the ethernet connection and therefore is clean from all the noise that is earlier in the ethernet signal chain. It is basically just a fresh start of the ethernet signal chain.

            • #197302
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              How sure are you on this point, because it also could be the crystals that are in a different situation. I think a Wifi extender is at least as noisy as a computer or router.

              I have used Euphony Stylus on my Pink Faun streamer. This player has a sit and relax mode. Which means after you have started the album you would lose control until the album or playlist is finished. This mode disconnects from the ethernet. Even when I played for day’s in this mode through a direct ethernet link, through USB or AES/EBU in all situations I had trouble with dark sound and now it seems crystal sync was the problem. In all situations I made use of the very best power supplies and clocks. In one situation we also tried this with the Metrum Adagio and the Ambre. They went dark in an hour as well.

            • #197304
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              They way i work is rather reading what people on the forum conclude, rather then testing everything my self.

              If you hear person after person confirming something then i tend to believe that there must be something to it, if it makes sense also. After having watched Hans Beekhuyzens videos, many many times, and discussed his theories it all makes sense when you also see what hundreds of people are reporting on the forums, if you have Hans ideas in the back of your head while reading.

              Everything suddenly makes sense if you only focus on noise and realize that the DAC is crazy sensitive to noise.

              Obviously a WiFi extender can output a very low noise floor since a lot of people are abandoning expensive switches and other kind of gear and move towards a simpler setup with WiFi extenders. This is something that is very new, basically this year.

            • #197296
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              About fibers. They do not work better than copper for sure. They do not block more noise than they cause. And the crystal sync even though fiber seems to take place as well. I have a few hundred meters of fiber cable and several converters left from the last session 🙂

            • #197298
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              The crystal sync issue i don´t understand. To me, digital works or it doesn´t. The only thing that can influence the sound is if the analogue conversion is not able to do its job perfectly, which happens if there is noise degrading that process. The digital part is always perfect and can´t influence the sound. That is in my mind impossible.

            • #197299
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Okay I have a measurement that Jaap Actually did for me. Due to crystal sync my Audio clock was off for about  400Khz.  Instead of 24576 it was running around 24.200 Mhz. This was due to the clock on the ethernet bridge of the BluOs module. I think for ethernet it’s another story. I will try to explain later.

              About the Muon. I have this Dlink switch with an ultra clock. When I add it in front of my Dac the sound will change in an extreme way. So very clean, clear with so much power and dynamics. It only takes a second to hear the difference, but after 24 to 48 hours the sound will collapse and most probably due to crystal sync. So I think my switch will at least have a similar effect as the Muon and because of the dual powersupply and fuses I have used. I even would think it will outperform the Muon easely just because it sounds so incredibly good that it’s hard to think anything else could be better 🙂

            • #197305
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Please check the reviews of the Muon Pro and talk to the Alpha guys about it. In the end of the Hans B video that i linked to he talks about how they tested this together (him and Alpha Audio) and concluded how amazing it is. I am not saying that it can´t be bettered but it does a lot for being a passive filter only, and is proven really hard to better.

              Also, think about the new PS Audio Airlens, that apparently is really good. What is Airlens? It is just a gap of air, just like a wifi extender, to break the physical connection. At least that is how i understand it.

            • #197306
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I am with Jaap that additional clocks probably just changes the noise floor. It doesn´t make any sense that their actual function can impact the sound since there is a new Clock in the DAC that actually matters. Jitter don´t travel, from what i understand. It is just something that happens in the clocking part if there is noise involved to get those square waves out of shape. But that doesn´t travel from one clock to the other. It is nullified by the next clock/buffering, from what i understand. The clock theory, when used prior to the DAC, has always been a noise thing but since it is a clock people has always thought that it is about jitter/square waves and timing, that normally is associated with clocking.

              That is my amateur summary or what i have managed to conclude  🙂

            • #197311
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Well it’s not so different as with the MUON 🙂

              They measured the MUON with the Wavecrest and the measurement showed timing and phase noise. Phase noise actually tells how precise the timing is.

              Think about this. A switch works with a 25Mhz clock. The switch is triggered by a rising or falling edge. The more precise the timing that this happens the lower the phase noise actually is. With a Pink Faun Ultra Clock from which the specs are incredibly good Phase noise at 10Hz is -130 dBc / Hz. They also did another trick with the clock to even make it better. They build the clock signal with 3.8V versus 0.4V for an average crystal. When the clock signal is that high the edge will be far more steep as well. This makes the moment that the 0 line is crossed even shorter and the timing even more precise. When a clock like this is built on a switch it can produce a very clean signal.

              For what concerns the 25Mhz. I must dive in this as well because I can’t understand how a 1Gbit or 10Gbit stream can be build with a 25Mhz crystal

            • #197308
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I will dive into it and probably order the Muon Pro. There’s a 30 day money back guarantee.

              Still the discussion is not what is better 🙂 I think there’s something else going on with ethernet. After 3 years of extensive testing I dare to say it’s not only about noise.

              Think about this situation. An Audio system is connected with a standard Ethernet system and the system produces a decent sound. After this an upgrade with a Sbooster on a switch and another high grade powersupply on the router made the sound really better. Then the Sbooster is replaced by an even better powersupply and again the sound became better. Then a better power cord was connected and again the sound became better, but now after 48 hours the sound became worse. So another power cord is installed and at first there’s better sound and later worse again. Diving into it, switching out weak links by better over and over again made the sound better at first but even more worse later. That is the story 🙂

              This story I have auditioned in at least 5 different systems. But most of time with less dramatic result than in mine. After everything I already have tried I’m really afraid it will be the same story with the MUON

               

            • #197310
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I have read like a mad man on different forums for a couple of years now and i don´t think i have ever heard about that sort of delayed issue. Interesting! I can´t of course say anything about that since i believe you!

              The good thing with keeping it simple, with the Muon Pro for example, is at least that it narrows down what the issue might be, hopefully 🙂

            • #197312
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I believe you as well 🙂 I have been trying to find someone with the same issue for years. The owners of the other systems which sometimes triple the price range of my system won’t admit it isn’t perfect. Still they say their system sounds better when they switch off the powersupply for 8 hours. Which actually confirms my verdict, they have the same problem in a less dramatic way.

            • #197313
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Maybe you are guilty of bat ears? We all have the issue but only some can hear it (X-files theme song playing) 🙂

            • #197315
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              What else do you know about my looks 🦇 🙂

              Thanks, you already have helped me with the Ferrite cores. I installed 4 of them. I can hear for sure a more clear sound.

            • #197317
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I just love that Ferrit core thing! Its amazing that no one have thought about this until now, or that it isn´t publicly known. The concept isn´t new, from what i understand, but used in other applications.

              I love sharing something that i come across but this was the first time i felt that i didn´t want to share it (at first) because it is just to good to be true. (i had more expensive ethernet cables and this will upset the cable industry…)

            • #197319
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes indeed. It’s actually pretty standard for signal cables. I have thought about small ferrites in the past, but never the bigger cores. Also in the switch transformers are ferrite cores per wire. These also have a filtering quality. Ethernet isolators also make use of these cores. About expensive ethernet cables I also have had several types, but in many cases I liked standard copper cable better.

            • #197314
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I guess people that goes for the Muon they are already very much invested in this whole noise thing so they are also not just plugging it into a random router, with a bad power supply? They are probably feeding it already with a decent quality ethernet signal, which makes it easier for the filter? (Here i am still assuming that it is all about the noise)

            • #197426
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Wel 24 hours later. It’s the same old story. The sound is dark again. Too dark for a listening session. I have to remove the Ferrite cores, because now the signal has become too clean again. The crystals seem to react to a too clean signal. Without the ferrite cores It seems I have the ultimate balans for what is possible with a network, going over the edge will make the sound collapse in time. Still I like the trick with the ferrite cores. Unfortunately the trick with the extra switch to inject noise is not working now. The ferrites seem to cancel that noise.

            • #197427
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              So there seems to be more proof for point 2. A too stable and clean ethernet signal will make the sound quality decrease as well.

              I have removed 4 Ferrite cores and I have left only 2 directly between the JCat netcard and the DAC. The sound has cleared up in 30 minutes

            • #197430
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              That´s crazy… Not for you, since you are used to this i guess. Not sure why i even try comment on this…:-) but are you sure it has anything to do with ethernet at all? My instinct want to think it is related to something else since the sound is getting “dark”? But i guess you are pretty dialed into this by now, and have drawn a lot of conclusions at this point.

            • #197432
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Do you think that ferrit setup is even reducing noise? I never really understood what it does. I thought it only was an affective shield but it is so effective in my setup that i question if it does even more?

            • #197436
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes they do. The trick is that you actually build an inductor. The more windings you create with the ethernet cable around the ferrite in the same direction the more inductivity you will create. It’s not a shield, but just like with a transformer the inductor will work against the signal, it doesn’t like changes in the signal at all. So actually sine waves are continuous changes in the signal. So the inductor will try to flatten the sine waves, but due to the small amount of windings it will only flatten the spikes that are on the sine waves. Spikes are also changes in the signal. See it as a smoother.

            • #197441
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Hmm, thanks! In my mind, working with digital/technology my self, the sine waves “should” not matter as long as they remain readable as ones and zeros, which they do, as Alpha Audio also shown. There is never packet drops. The data is buffered before the DAC step so the sinewaves should be nullified anyway, i am thinking. Maybe i am misunderstanding your explanation but in my mind it has to do with noise :-), as you know i believe, and then the the core throttle must also remove noise some how?

            • #197442
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I read up a bit and i now understand that the sinewave is in fact the analogue part (ground plane?), from what i understand. Then i can see that it could make a difference and somehow influence the DAC performance.

            • #197443
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              With the sinewave I meant the data waveform. In fact it’s not a sine wave. (see reply 197275 and 197277) On this waveform you can see another tiny waveform on top of it. That tiny waveform on top is not data, it’s noise, but there will also be noise that is so fast that my scope can’t picture it. Normally the noise that you can’t see will be smoothed first, but the tiny waveform that you can see on top of the actual waveform will be smoothed a bit as well by the ferrite (inductor). The more windings we make the more noise we cancel, until we cancel the main waveform as well.

              What we can’t do with an inductor is repairing the waveform build itself.

              With a high grade powersupply we can reduce noise in the first place by not creating it. Also the waveform builds are a lot better. I guess that this waveform is also driving the crystal of the receiving switch. The stronger the drive the less the flexibility of the receiving switch to talk with other devices. Still each device should capture the waveform that is received and sent by one crystal. I think this will cause a less perfect shape of the waveform itself.

              I’m not sure if my thought about this is correct, but I think it can be explained best by a R2R Dac. With a R2R dac a dataword will find a resistor for each bit in the word. This way the dataword will be converted into an analog signal. I think everyone could understand that the width and shape of each bit going through the resistors to create an analog signal matters a lot.

              I also think this matter on a conventional dac chip. And indeed still everything can be bit perfect at the same time 🙂

            • #197447
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              In addition to the above. About driving a crystal of the receiving switch or device. Every ethernet device has a galvanic isolator transformer on each port. So receiving data is slightly delayed. This will also be the case for the crystal that will clock in the data (At least according to a measurement interpretation). At the moment the switch or ethernet device will change talking to another device it should fast synchronize to this other device to make sure the data can be received in good shape.

              Please correct me, because I most certainly are off track now 🙂

            • #197454
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I actually think that we are basically arriving at the same conclusion but maybe only articulating it differently or have some slight different thoughts on the root issue? I should say that Hans B is my only reference since i trust him :-).

              Here is how i understand him, on a high level:

              The noise (different types of noise) in the ground plane are according to Hans B causing the square wave to change shape from I_I to instead look like this \_/.  Hence the timing is off when converting to analogue, since the distance between those vertical lines are no-longer equal, The result is called jitter(?), in a DAC clock/dac context, but the actual cause of that jitter is the noise messing up those square waves, that no-longer is perfectly square.

              The human hearing is exceptional at picking up those tiny timing related differences and the differences in timing are on pico second level, which we are not able to measure, yet.

              Not sure why i write this down since i am not an expert… :-), but it felt nice to illustrate it in writing for myself.

              Also, i am not claiming that you already “knew” about this. It is more to share how i think to see if it differs from your way.

            • #197456
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I think that’s a great illustration. I do that as well, writing it down and getting a better understanding my self 🙂  Hans for sure has far more knowledge on this matter.

              May I add that we maybe should talk about datawords instead of bits for even better understanding. Let’s look into the R2R dac for another moment. When we draw vertically a container for 24 bits and we will draw the single bits vertically under each other in this container. Then we will see the shapes of the actual 1’s and 0’s. Not one bit will have the exact shape of another, they are all different. Together they will go through the resistors and will be combined at the output. They represent a voltage together. When we put another dataword with exactly the same data in the containers, but again not one bit will have exactly the same shape as in the first data container, because the shapes of the bits are actually built analog. Still they represent the same digital data value(bit perfect). Still due to the analog shapes they will create a slight other output voltage.

              Personally I think that this is what we hear and not the picosecond of time difference. I think our brain must deal with all sorts of reflections which it will correct to a certain level. Besides this an audioclock of 24.576 Mhz will only clock out once every 512 clock taps for a 48Khz file.

            • #197458
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Thanks for sharing. I will have to read that a few times and let is soak in 🙂

            • #197461
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Of course 🙂 Keep in mind it’s still just a theory

              I came up with this theorie, because logically data bits that are not shaped well will limit high frequency response first. When a small amount of output voltage is missing on each clocktap due to badly shaped data, an analog audio waveform will have shorter spikes and because high frequencies are built with more spikes than low frequencies we will hear dark sound.

            • #197460
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I also like envisioning how we can “see” a holographic image, just re-created by pure sound. If one think about that, and the tolerances involved for our brain to re-create such a holographic imaging, then it is clear (to me) that our brain is amazing at compute sound based on timing. Otherwise this is not possible to recreate in our brain. Those timing tolerance is really amazing and makes sense to me if they are challenging to measure. Now this does of course not relate or explain your issue, but is more a way to illustrate why i think timing is incredible important as we convert from digital into analogue.

            • #197463
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes for sure 100%. But what is the reference of the time that’s needed to hear what we hear in our listening room. I mean when we listen to concerts miles away we can hear large time fluctuations due to wind and other weather influences like pressure etc. The fluctuations can be a few hundred milliseconds up to half a second. So what do we really need for a steady high-end reproduction? Of course it must be far better than that 🙂 We sit about 0,01Second away from our loudspeakers. When an audio clock will tap around each 40 nanoseconds at a precision of 15 picoseconds per second. And it will be even more precise when we look into it on a longer term, because it outputs data every 512 clocktaps and so we have a build of 48000 points. Still this timing can be near perfect, but because the signal isn’t built with the complete voltages I hear a dark sound. The image on the other hand is amazing.

            • #197465
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Your delayed dark sound is really a mystery. It is stupid if I even try to go into what that could relate to and my brain would probably start hurting anyway. 😀

            • #197466
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              It took me a very long time to figure it out, but the sound of my system is really good nowadays and I dare to say that it is on a level which is not regular at all (at this level, there’s always a better system) :-). Even more with the ferrites in the last section. They are not a problem there (yet). 🙂 For sure I will dive deeper into this materie.

              The downside is that I have heard my system can do even better than it sounds right now. It is really tempting to set that last step and to keep on looking. Which causes trouble in the end over and over.

            • #197467
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Thanks at least for trying. It really is appreciated. If we can understand what happens I’m sure we can make another step.

            • #197444
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I figured 🙂

              The more we know the more it seems we can’t understand. Speaking of myself of course. I’ve been discussing ethernet for over a decade now and I’m still learning how little I know. For me it helps a lot when people with knowledge think with me. So thanks!

              Wrong position. This was a reply on 197141

               

            • #197435
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Goodmorning Tobias, Yes indeed I’m pretty dialed into this subject. Actually the ethernet was the very last thing that I suspected to be the cause. The list of things that I have tried before I came to the conclusion that it must be the ethernet is very long, the tiniest things sometimes not even related to audio are tried extensively. But also a complete swap of the audio system and setting up a second system are on the list.

              I’m positive now it’s the ethernet, because I now know exactly what I can do to solve the problem every time. I even can get the second system dark, when I put it on the same network. Adding noise into the ethernet makes things better when the system is dark. Adding more filters on the powernet or like I have done with the ferrites on the ethernet cabling is making it worse. When adding filters on the powernet then the ethernet system will benefit from this as well, but with the effect that it will sound dark in time.

    • #197252
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      Hi Wijnand, I located you here. I may return in the future. While I grasp your setup’s details and believe in them, my personal experience leaves me somewhat skeptical about the explanation. I’ve heard of users occasionally resetting the network, but typically on a monthly basis. I’ve never attempted it myself.

      In the months ahead, I’ll be quite busy, but I wanted to share additional insights from John Swenson (found on AudiophileStyle) regarding networks and common misconceptions. These observations aim to delineate the various elements influencing perceived sound quality. I won’t provide explanations myself, but I hope these insights offer a deeper understanding. It’s worth noting that participants in the discussion prefer different solutions for optimal sound quality, ranging from fiber to Cat5e to WiFi. While there are diverse means to achieve similar results, each system and its connections are unique.

      Quote from John Swenson @ AudiophileStyle:

      (…) Digital audio networks seem to be “disturbed” by two different things, jitter on the data and common mode current on the wires. These are actually converted one to the other in many places in the network path. The end result of this is jitter on the clock and data in the DAC subtly changing the analog signal output from the DAC.

      This has absolutely NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to do with the data bits being corrupted, check sums etc. It has to do with subtle changes in timing of the data bits and small ground plane differences getting into the DAC through the normal network connections. The Data doesn’t get corrupted in any way, the bits are still the same.

      There are some big misconceptions about optical network connections. The optical connections do NOT make the timing perfect. They do NOT “reclock” the data. whatever jitter that is on the input is still there on the output, in fact the electrical to optical and back to electrical ADDS jitter to the signal. All higher quality optical equipment can do is add less jitter to what is already there, it CANNOT reduce it. What is beneficial is that it completely blocks the common mode noise including leakage currents from power supplies.  It  blocks one of the issues but makes the other slightly worse. All higher quality optical equipment can do is make that “slightly less” even less, but it is still there.(…)

      • #197267
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Thanks for this article!

        In the first paragraph is written; common mode current on the wires. I have to think about this, because an ethernet connection to a switch is always galvanic isolated with the shield as an exception.

        In the second paragraph is written; That data is not being corrupted in any way. I know that’s true, but what about the shape of a bit? The bits are just an analog signal that is interpreted as digital data. And on the DAC it’s the other way around. I think the shape of the bit is an important factor.

        In the third paragraph is written; In other words that data is just passed trough, but what about noise? I think that noise can be past true as well. Think about this: an electrical noise spike is converted to light and on the other side converted back from light to an electrical noise spike.

        Personally I found out that at least in my system fiber optics can’t compete with copper devices. I really tried hard. I still have a few hundred meters of fiber optic cables and several converters. I think the clock signal is passed trough. The data tap is built by a clock and sent by a clock and catched by a clock.

        I will look into the link you have sent and maybe see you back in a few months. Good luck!

    • #197259
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer
    • #197468
      Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
      Deelnemer

      Hi,

      I’ve following your interesting discussion about this topic and although I don’t understand most of it I will say this: I tested the Moun Pro in my own set and it did make a subtle but at the same time powerful difference. At first you don’t notice anything but after a while you realize that you kept on listening for hours on end without any listening fatigue. Some background haze or whatever you want to call it seemed to have disappeared and this made the sound more relaxed. To a point even that it sounded almost too relaxed, it also had the illusion of sounding quieter because the music had less stress in it, like I wondered if the bass had become less impactful. I definitely needed a long time to get used to this new sound and I only realized this after I sent it back. It definitely sounded more agreeable to the ear.

      I only tested the Muon Pro itself, not the cable.

       

      Pieter

      • #197469
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Hello Pieter,

        Thank you for sharing this. What you describe I really recognize in what I often have heard in my situation. About the background haze this indeed can easily completely disappear. Still in my experience with this, is that it can mean two things. 1. The sound is so incredibly pure without any noise. 2. The sound is missing details on the same level as where the background hase is some kind of detail too.

        Low frequencies can increase strength by a theorie that I will try to explain soon.

        Relaxed sound can be a lack of detail as well. Just like a LP is most often more relaxed due to the lesser amount of detail than most digital files.

        Less stress in music. Do you mean instruments and voices had less explosive impact? Or was it more free of noise?

        Don’t get me wrong I’m not judging and I’m really open minded and trying to understand what the Muon brought in your system. Maybe you can react to the thoughts I described?

      • #197475
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        Pieter, I agree on the effects of ethernet noise filtering, as you describe it. Even better than the best power supplies are: No power supplies! (or additional electronics in the path way) 🙂

        It makes perfect sense to me also that additional clocking, prior to the DAC, has been a topic for many years since the improvements when cleaning up noise is more inline what you would expect from “better clocking”, since the actual DAC clock will work better when cleaning up the noise. (words you used: Relaxed, less stress, agreeable)

        The additional clocking is not actually doing anything at all, in form of clocking since the data is buffered in the DAC anyway and Jitter don´t travel on the network. The clocking just needs to be perfectly executed in the DAC, that´s all. For that to happen there can´t be any noise degrading that DAC clock. The additional clocking can however impact the the noise level positively, as a side affect. (Again, my own thoughts/conclusions)

        Now, this was a side track, but to me this shows how it is possible that digital noise has always been the main problem and “simple” filtering and “airgapping” (WiFi extenders/4G receivers) is actually the best solution, not adding additional electronics/power supplies, which always comes with some level of noise in themselves. (my own theories again :-))

        • #197477
          TobiasTobias
          Deelnemer

          In addition, since the solution is actually fairly simple (i believe), in theory, it has been in the audio industries interest to try to complicate it. Not always by purpose maybe… But I see that people associated with the audio industry is actually joining the forums and try to shot down any of the simplified theories since they have an interest in selling ethernet related gear and power supplies.

        • #197480
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Hi tobias, I must try out the Muon to get an idea myself, but first I will do some more experiments with the ferrite and I will dive in the Muon as well. I think we at least need a powersupply for a switch and a router, maybe a better power supply will lower the noise already for a starting point and less filtering is needed.

          Do you mean additional clocking or replacing a clock by a more silent clock? I have done the latter, but I can’t use it because of the effects I get after several hours. I think these clocks can help in building a better signal, because a standard crystal has a pretty high phase noise level.

          Just for the record. My relation with audio products is DIY only 😉

           

           

           

          • #197498
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Better DAC clocks makes a lot of sense. Additional clocking in switches and streamers make no sense, from a clocking perspective. They might help lower the noise floor towards the DAC though, as a biproduct.

            Power supplies are needed yes. But in a WiFi extender situation, you only need one power supply, in the network path.

            In a non WiFi situation you have a multitude of electronics and power supplies interconnected that needs to be cleaned up prior to the DAC.

            • #197501
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I see your point and still I almost try everything. Networks have surprised me too many times. I thought about this structure as well and for this purpose I have put a fiber converter several times next to my DAC. Still the copper connection Router -> Streamer -> Dac had the clear preference. I have tried 4 different fiber converter single mode and multi mode and fed them with different power supplies as well. This way there was only 1 powersupply at the side of the DAC, but the powersupplie on the other side had almost as much impact. Actually every ethernet connection has a galvanic isolation to the next device except for the shield. I guess with Wifi it will work better (I can imagine). I haven’t tried that, but the fun is that I have asked a friend of mine to try a powersupply at his transmitter side of the Wifi. It did make a difference and he was very skeptical 🙂
              I just built a new ferrite cable with 9 windings. It’s between the Jcat and my Dac. At least until now It really does more than I thought. It’s on another level than what a powersupplie brings, but together they are great 🙂

               

               

               

            • #197504
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Yes, fibre is not ideal since the signal needs to be the type of signal that the DAC handles. It means that it needs to be converted from fibre to “ethernet” signal, inside or close to the streamer, which causes noise, which is what needs to be avoided, at all cost.

              Amazing to hear that you are happy with the ferrit core throttle!

        • #197503
          Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
          Deelnemer

          Hi Wijnand and Tobias

          I’m still not sure how to describe it properly. Instruments sounded less impactful indeed, all harshness was gone but this was probably due to the lower noise floor. They also sounded a bit more natural. In the end everything sounded softer as if I turned down the volume but I didn’t. That felt strange. I didn’t want even less impact: a while back I changed my DAC and one of the things I noticed was less speed, less impact when music demands, clearly audible one test tracks such as enter sandman from metallica.  Personally, I think this has to do with the power supply: the old DAC had a switch mode and the new one a linear one.

          A good power supply gives you speed attack etc but no harshness like the Ferrum hypsos that is now on my switch. It’s a hybrid. That’s why I think that the Network acoustics Tempus switch will be a good one: it has a hybrid power supply. So I partially agree with Tobias, better no power supply at all but the good ones give you dynamics and impact but no stress.

          Sorry for my confusing words, I find it very hard to explain what I hear.

          Pieter

          • #197506
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Maybe fibre could be used similarly to a WiFi extender but fibre definitely isn´t as effective as airgapping since you can hear changes in the network even prior to the fibre, even if many say that shouldn´t be possible…

          • #197507
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Pieter, do you have one certain volume position that you use? I ask since my experience is that when the noise is removed the sound gets less shouty, which is perceived as less energetic.

            But you can now turn up the volume instead, a lot, without it getting loud and fatiguing. Thanks to this you suddenly have better dynamics, since you can crank the volume more without it appearing to be loud. It basically starts sounds more like vinyl and not like digital music.

            That is my view, and i feel that it is a paradox that is easy to miss if you focus on a certain “fixed” volume level.

            • #197510
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              found this picture also. What is actually inside the Networks Accoustics Muon Pro? Well, it looks to be the ferrit core chokes…

            • #197512
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Good morning, Yes I found that picture as well, but I’m not sure it’s the latest version. This one is only 100Mbit I think because of the 4 wires that are used.

              Due to the fact the phase noise chanched in the video of Hans Beekhuizen. I think something else is going on. I can’t believe it’s only the filtering yet 🙂 Please maybe read this twice 🙂

              What has happened in my system is that the trouble I had with dark sound reappears after I put a filter in each section of my small network. I think the dark sound is caused by bad phase noise. Due to crystals that synchronize and unsynchronize. Because the negative effect did not take place when I only put a filter in the last section. I’m positive that the strength and or stability of the signal in each section is more of a concern than the filter itself. I think the crystal of the sending device must not be influenced by the receiving device when it’s talking back. When the signal between the sending device and the receiving device is on the same level I think they will float all around and there’s no stable factor. One must be the clear leader.

              I think it causes this same problem when I put a high grade powersupply on each device. A powersupply which is ultra clean and sets a far more clean and stable signal in the path than a SPS will do. This is measured and this is proven. When the signal becomes on the same level in each section the sending can’t lead that easely. One could think that this would be the same problem with a switch mode powersupply, but I think that the instability of this signal causes another effect and no crystal seems to influence any other crystal at all.

              When putting the ferrite filter only in the last section this section became of different strength. The inductor will weaken the signal a bit. The cleaning factor of the stream built by a high grade powersupply is much smaller than on a stream built by a SPS, but the weakening of the signal and the EMK’s will always be there. I think the downstream matter. The sending crystal becomes the master and the receiving crystal becomes the follower. The dac itself will be influenced less, because the crystal in the network does not float around that much and the phase noise level will benefit :-). I will dive deeper, but due to all the testing that I already did in the last few years this is my conclusion at the moment. For example in one test I have used 8 Pink Faun ethernet isolators. Each isolator is a filter as well all together I think they can bring a big filtering quality. Putting them all in series one by one weakened the signal that much that the sound became sharp as a serrated knife. It was perfectly readable, but the bits became very small

               

               

            • #197520
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Hehe, I can imagine the frustration if it actually turns out to be as simple as they are concluding on the German site, when you have worked with something so long.

              I am not saying that it is this simple, for sure, and i also haven´t tested much other things my self, to be honest, so i can´t judge the greatness of this compared to other solutions. However, i have to say, just based on following those German guys for a couple of months now, i really think they have been taken a very credible systematic approach (very German, in fact 🙂 )that has lead me to think that they really have nailed it 🙂

            • #197523
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              BTW, i am very happy to hear that you are a DIY guy. I wish i was as well but for me even soldering a cable feels like a giant leap, but i am fighting my demons and have at least done that now 🙂

            • #197524
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              What i can say though is that i know a lot about digital and networking. So i can at least understand what it can´t be, from a digital/networking perspective, which i believe helps me sort away things that can´t influence the sound. But there is always this nagging feeling that there is some aspects that you have overlooked since my knowledge isn´t directly tied to audio of course…

            • #197527
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Hi Tobias, I really believe you have the knowledge about digital systems. I can’t argue that. I am very happy with your input. It helps me to prevent a certain tunnel vision on the subject.

              Still my experience with many other people that also thought they had the knowledge including myself are proven to be wrong so many times. Once, way back in 2013 I spoke with a guy that claimed to have all the network knowledge. He thought I was wrong and he was trying to convince me over and over. We spoke and discussed for almost a year. In the end I brought him the conclusion he was wrong. From that point he was telling me what I told him already so many times. This all due to the fact I worked with the result and searched for the cause as long as it takes. This thing has already happened too many times, I’m pushing and working against the odds. In 2015 I started over here on the alpha audio forum where bits were still 1’s and 0’s. I won’t say I was the trigger to the understanding, but I will say I already knew 🙂

              Please in the meantime believe me that I have an effect that can’t be explained easily. Actually it can, but when a signal is on a certain level other problems seem to appear, problems that should be solved when the (sound quality) level that has been shown for short periods of time, must become the new normal 🙂

              Maybe you are right so I will try out your solution for sure. I’m closing in, but that there is more to find than filtering only is almost a fact for me. But I hope I’m wrong this time and things will fall in place and seem to be as simple as they should be. Stay tuned 🙂

            • #197526
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              🙂 It would be a relief to really understand what is going on, no matter the financial part it already cost me. I started this thread due to the fact it did not turn out as simple as I and many others thought. Starting over and over from scratch a few hundred times (which is not exaggerated a bit) each time with another approach I could never find a logical explanation. Until I found out the crystal seemed to cause the problems. From this point I can target the test on this aspect. Finally and time after time I now can connect things with logical explanations and make steps forward. When I’m wrong I will admit that, but for now I’m still more certain each day. Still I will try the solution without the high grade power supplies once again as well. I also will try the Wifi solution to get a complete view.

              The most important thing is that we can say for a fact what is going on. In all situations one could simplifie things to an ultimate level when proven knowledge can point us the way. 🙂

            • #197532
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Wijnand, being subject matter expert has proven to be the worst you can be, in audio! I fully agree with your thoughts! In general, the worst type of advice is actually coming from the people who claim “I have been an bla bla bla, for ages and…”. You need to have experience with audio, that is what this is about. 🙂 So i am very open to that i could be very wrong! 🙂

            • #197533
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Thanks 🙂

              Well I have one test down. I have built 2 short cables with ferrite cores. One with 9 windings and one with 14 windings. From the Jcat I went directly into the DAC using the cable with Ferrite and 9 windings. After this I have tested the Ferrite with the 14 windings. I could not hear a difference between the two. Well when I would listen harder then maybe I would hear a small difference, but I guess that wouldn’t make sense.

              After this I have positioned a switch between the Jcat and the DAC. From the Jcat 14 windings to the switch and from the switch 9 windings to the DAC. For the switch I have used a Farad Super 10 in floating from ground mode. The sound that I heard directly from the Jcat was pretty much the same now with the extra switch. Maybe now there’s a bit more organic sound, but it also was a tiny bit out of balance due to energie in lower frequencies.

              After this I replaced the Farad Super 10 with a switch mode powersupply which is in floating mode from ground by default. Well the listening session only took 5 seconds. That was not high-end. The ferrite cores could not solve and repair the noise of the powersupply.

              I will now replace the switch with the ultra clock switch. I’m very curious what this will bring. Sit tight! 🙂

            • #197535
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I love the live broadcast. Exciting 🙂

            • #197548
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              In general, do you agree that switch mode PS are better in the digital domain then when analogue is involved, like a DAC, as Alpha Audio is suggesting? I know that very good linear ps (like your Farad) is maybe even better, also in the digital domain, but do you agree that there seem to be a speed factor involved in the digital domain, that is often easier to achieve in switch mode power supplies, from what i read?

            • #197552
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes there’s something there, but I think it’s not about a switchmode or a linear powersupply. It’s about the type of the output stage. Actually a few years ago I spoke with the head engineer / owner of Farad power supplies about the Super 3. The super 3 had in those day’s a tiny elco capacitor in the output stage. It was a very fast one with very low esr. The first few hundred of the Farad Super 3 were built like that. In the measurements of Alpha Audio’s multitest powersupplies you can find that type of Farad. Later the Farad was modified and the little elco was replaced by an MKS capacitor which was easely 100 times faster. Shortly after this also a little ceramic capacitor was put on the voltage regulator, which made it incredibly fast and stable. I had 3 Farads of that first type and they sounded better on analog equipment than the newer version, but the newer version sounded far better on digital equipment. Those days there were thought to build an analog powersupply line and a digital line.

              I started modifying my own old types and tried almost 20 different capacitors in the output stage. Everytime the sound that it produced on equipment became different, I learned a lot those day’s about output stages.

              If you want a powersupply for analog equipment. Make sure it has an elco in output stage or a MKP capacitor. When you want a powersupply for digital equipment take one with a MKS or MKP capacitor.
              The MKP can be used for both applications, but they normally are a lot bigger than a MKS.
              The Super 10 has a MKP output stage, but a Super 6 is coming with an MKS output stage and that one will fill the gap between the Super 3 and the Super 10.

            • #197554
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer
            • #197555
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              wow, thanks for that detailed answer!

            • #197534
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Well the clock is not even warm. In only another 5 seconds it is so clear this clock is something special. Every detail thight’s up and a super system is born! The sound stage was already very precise, but now its 2 times more precise details have more impact and became completely free. Low frequencies are brought with more information. I will wait 48 hours now to see if the ferrite cores can prevent the problems with dark sound that normally appeared in my system.

            • #197536
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Yes, but it actually is your DAC clock that you hear still, since the data is buffered in the DAC before it is clocked again in your DAC.

              I am fairly positive (if i may be a bit offensive) that this clock lowers the noise output of the switch, for some reason.

            • #197537
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes of course! That’s not even the question. The clock does nothing with the timing for the network. This is all about noise 🙂 and maybe it helps with a better signal built.

              Actually it probably can even get better, because I needed the powersupply of the Jcat, so the Jcat went at least 20% down in quality, still the switch clock with a dual high grade powersupply lifted the sound up quite a bit 🙂

              The clock is completely galvanic isolated from the switch.

            • #197539
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Sorry for stating the obvious :-). Very cool, thanks for sharing!

            • #197541
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Haha 🙂 yes sorry, but stating the obvious makes it even more clear. Just for another test in the meantime I have switched back to the Jcat with the 9 winding ferrite to the dac. The sound is still very good, but a few % more ‘grey’ and maybe more relaxed, because the soundstage lost some detail.

              The few % more grey you will only hear the first few minutes after switching from A to B

            • #197529
              Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
              Deelnemer

              Hi Tobias,

              Yes I deliberately left the volume position the same when testing with and without the Muon Pro. And yes I could turn the volume up even more with the Muon than without and it all sounded very listenable and the clamness was impressive. So I probably perceived it as being softer, it played tricks with my mind.

              So for now I conclude the same as you, filtering out the ethernet signal makes it so listenable that I wonder if a super expensive streamer and cables would make it better. It does flatten the sound a bit. To counteract you have to make things lively and dynamic through clean power and good power supplies. My balanced power conditioner proved that by freeing up the sound, especially in the lower regions.

              I had the Mutec MC3 reclcoker a while back and that gave some nice flow on my old DAC but not on the new one so I sold it. I do think that the Mutec 10mhz clock is far better, I never tested that one.

              Pieter

            • #197530
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              The streamer only need to have a low internal noise floor. It makes sense what Alpha Audio is reporting that simple streamers, without extra gadgets like wifi and bluetoth, like the Volumio Rivo and Primare NP5 (for example) can make you DAC perform great when fed with a silent power.

              I agree that quality PS is very important but we should also have as few power supplies as possible, if it can be avoided. The trend has often been to add switches and stuff with great power, instead of trying to find ways of making them not needed.

            • #197531
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              It is also extremely important to not physically hook up stuff to your streamer or DAC, like any type of computer or TV or other devices! That will ruin the noise floor potential of the streamer or DAC totally and nullify all your achievements in PS and clean ethernet connection.

    • #197472
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      When we think about an 8 bit dac. Would the calculated value be the same as the measured value? I think with a perfect signal it would be, but it’s not about 1’s and 0’s but about analog build bits in a data container. When the shape of the bit is not perfect it still represents the digital value, but would it measure correct as well? I guess high frequencies will be lost first and low frequencies will gain body. See the attached scheme.

      Think about what less shaped bits will do in a R2R dac. Every bit will find its resistor and all bits combined will output a voltage.
      8 bit dac

      • #197528
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        Wow, it is great for the community to have people like you that actually take time to test and verify different solutions and combinations and share the result. Much appreciated!

    • #197474
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      With the above theory you can see that higher values will drop the most. Lower values can’t drop that much. I think a percentage of each value must be combined to get the value that will be measured. Logically you can see the lines will be less steep and this means high frequencies will be decreased more than low frequencies. In fact there will be more low frequencies, because the higher frequencies will come on top of the low frequencies.

    • #197578
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Today I have built two new cables with Ferrite cores. This time I have used 100% copper instead of CCA. This brings that extra touch in music. That few % more color, not warmer, but better sound color. I have filled the cores with warm glue.

      We had the discussion about more equipment, more power supplies would reduce sound quality. Well I added a D’Link AQvox between the Jcat and the Dac and powered it with a Super 10. Between the JCat and the switch I have a ferrite core cable and also between the switch and the DAC. In my opinion this is as good as it can get 🙂 Really better than without the switch. Only the clock switch brought even better detail, but in comparison to the current solution. It’s makes not so much of a difference!

      The complete stream

      1. Wan fiber converter on Farad Super 3 – 5Vdc with QSA Red/Black fuse

      2. Router Draytek Vigor2962 modified to work with Farad Super 10 – 12Vdc (Stock fuse) (fancy fuses make the sound warmer, which is less good)

      3. PC streamer with Jcat Netcard XE fed by a Farad Super 3 – 5Vdc (Stock fuse) (fancy fuses make the sound warmer, which is less good)

      4. AQvox switch Fed by Farad Super 10 – 5Vdc (on  both sides of the AQvox a ferriet Cable) (Stock fuse) (fancy fuses make the sound warmer, which is less good)

      While listening no extra connection to the ethernet system.

      For sure it’s not the cheapest solution, but to my ears it works better than the solutions with very expensive streamers alone. Improving the complete stream matters. It outperforms my own music library on SSD.

      I think it’s time to enjoy listening for a while 🙂

      @Tobias thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Ferrite cores. They really did the trick 🙂

      • #197582
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        Thanks for sharing again!

        What is that 100% copper instead of CCA? Can i buy that or is it DIY only?

        Since i am convinced that it is all about noise then I am thinking that if you can have an extremely low noise floor early in the signal chain (as the WR902AC V4 Wifi extender seem to have when paired with really clean power) then there is no need to add additional electronics and power supply, in that particular combination. But i haven´t of course tested all possible combinations, like yours for example, :-).

        • #197583
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Yes you can buy it 🙂

          Most ethernet is sold as CCA which is an alloy of aluminium with a copper layer. This is the cheaper and lighter variant. When it’s 100% copper they will always put that in the specs as well as in the case of CCA.

          Just like you. I haven’t tested your situation as well. I will look into that for sure and maybe I will learn that there’s an even better way 🙂

          The only thing that I can say is that this situation can compete with the very best streamers. From 2014 I bought my first high grade streamer and after this one I have had 5 others in my system. Not one outperformed the current situation.

          I could install the rabbit ears on my DAC and on one of my PC streamers to test the WIFI solution, would that make sense?

          • #197586
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Not sure what a PC streamer means exactly but now “knowing” you i guess it is some sort of well built Rasbarry Pi, with ultra capacitor conditioners and stuff to keep a low internal noise floor?

            My focus lies solely on making sure that the streamer has the lowest possible internal noise floor, when in operation, so that it can output the same to the DAC. At the moment i don´t even have a fancy audio streamer my self… I only run the Yamaha WXC-50 which is limited in its own internal noise floor, i assume.

            So basically, whatever i connect to that streamer needs to have the lowest possible noise floor output, to keep the streamers noise floor as close to its own ideal noise floor as possible.

            In my case it means that i only connect the WiFi extender, with battery power, to my streamer, using the ferrit core cable. Nothing else is connect to the streamer inputs.

            That was an attempt to answer your question 🙂

    • #197597
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Well maybe then I should use my router’s Wifi directly on my DAC streamer. Then there is nothing in between.

      But first I like to share a theorie of which I think the problem is really based. A problem that you will not have when using Wifi. I even think that when you deal with this problem then you won’t need Wifi for the reason you thought you needed Wifi 🙂

      Actually I should draw it, but then I first need to post it on another forum and then connect it here. That’s what I did with the other picture’s I posted.

      I will try it with words and to make it more simple let’s think ethernet runs on 25hz instead of 25Mhz. So the ethernet runs at 25hz.

      1. We have a Router (25)

      2. We have a PC (26)

      3. We have a Switch (24)

      4 we have a Dac / Streamer (23)

      These ethernet devices need to run at the exact same speed to communicate with each other. Each device has a crystal with a certain source speed. Not one device has the exact same source speed. Let’s think that each device runs on the source speed that I have put behind it. Now we’re going to run data downstream from the router to the DAC.

      As soon as the router starts talking to the PC the PC will synchronize automatically to the router’s source speed. So the PC will meet the 25Hz. The PC will start talking to the switch, but now the switch must synchronize to the speed of the PC. The switch will forward the data to the DAC. This happens. I have measured this.

      Before I go on I must explain that the blockform that is sent will be slightly in another time frame. Because it must pass a galvanic isolator transformer on each output and input. So between two devices are two transformers. Lets say the blockwave is delayed by 4 nanoseconds. Then it can be stored in the receiving devise and sent to the next device. Due to the fact ethernet communication goes in both ways. This means when a device is answering or talking back. It must be flexible to do this on its own terms. When it talks back there will be (due to the transformers) a few nanoseconds delay as well. But a complete clock cycle is 40 nanoseconds. This means now the device that first sends the data must see to receive the answer. This means it must synchronize to the answer speed. Before it can send new data at its own speed.

      For audio the only thing that matters is the downstream. The answers are not audio related. When we only would have downstream (one way) I think our problems would be solved. I think these crystals that float around cause the main trouble we hear. Noise comes in second place.

      Well the trick is to stabilize the downstream. Make the power downstream bigger than the power for the answering power. This way the sending crystal becomes some kind of a master. I have done a lot of tests that point in the direction of theorie. Also the latest with the ferrite core which I will explain.

      The ferrite core in the last section of ethernet does the complete trick in my system.

      When I put ferrite cores in the other sections as well they seem to do almost nothing. Then I have lowered the data power in each section.

      • #197601
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Also in the test of Hans Beekhuizen with the help of Alpha audio the Wavecrest showed a lower phase noise. This supports the above theorie as well Crystal are less floating around. Which means more stability at a certain frequency.

      • #197607
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        I know this will probably not mean much for you, since people say a lot about different things, but i have to share my honest thought on your write up.

        For me, that goes against everything i know about digital. I know people have probably said this 100 times to you but digital is always perfect. What arrives to your dac is always perfect. Either it arrives 100% perfect or it doesn´t arrive at all. If it doesn´t then you get stutter, or it doesn´t work at all.

        The only thing that matter is the performance of the DAC, its clock and the conversion process. That is where it has to be perfect conditions for that processing to run perfect at the limit of what the DAC is capable of to output its best analogue signal. What goes on before that is actually irrelevant.

        Noise does however degrade the dac/clock performance, even crazy low amount of noise, so that it can´t convert the signal as well as it is capable of. We need to stop that noise which people has tried for many years even if looking for other root issues as well.

        Now, i am not saying that this will maybe change your mind, since people are always saying a lot of things 🙂 . But this is my honest opinion at least.

        • #197619
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Yes of course! It’s very good you keep repeating that, because it’s 100% true. That for sure is not the problem, but when we look once again to reply 197472 where I have drawn this 8 bit dac. When a digital value is 100% correct it doesn’t mean the shape of the bit that actually is read analog is perfect as well. Let’s say the data shapes are 100% the sound will be 100% as well. When the data is less than 100% for example 25%. Then the digital value can still be 100%, but when we use this 25% shaped data and transfer it in an analog voltage you will hear the build of the 25%. When you look at the vector. Then you see that each line will be more horizontal (smaller corners) this means that each frequency will be actually lower than it should be. High frequencies will suffer much more of this than lower frequencies

           

           

          • #197620
            WijnandWijnand
            Deelnemer

            Let’s think of 8 glasses which we can fill with water. Each glass represents a bit in the byte. Now when there’s water in the glass it’s true when the glass is empty it’s false. Let’s put water in 4 glasses. One we will fill with 20% water, one with 24%, one with 30% and one with 54%.

            This means the outcome is 01010101

            Now we do this again but now we will fill those glasses with 100% water

            The outcome is 01010101

            Will the sound be the same when we make it analog by pouring the water through resistors?

             

            • #197626
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              But the beauty with digital is that it is only about 0 and 1, which makes it perfect in all conditions.

              There are no such components involved like you are talking about. Digital is a genius invention in that it can´t be almost perfect, not even in an audio context.

            • #197627
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Then there’s no problem 🙂 and we are back in 2010 (just kidding)

              I think these components are called transistors and capacitors. They don’t understand 1 or 0. They work with a voltage. From a certain level it will open and close when the glass is empty. So it’s an analog process which we call digital

          • #197622
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Yes, i believe this is the same things as Hans B is talking about when he says that it starts looking like this \_/ instead of having vertical lines. This is caused by noise hitting the DAC clock, from how i understand him.

            What people has never understood is how incredible sensitive this is. When we do stuff, prior to the DAC, we are basically just modulating the noise and since the DAC is incredible sensitive it reacts even if you only insert another cable, or add an addtional clock, way before in the signal chain since the noise profile changed just a tiny bit.

            • #197624
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Maybe he means the same. Jitter time based.

              More important is the reason that it happens. I think when crystal can’t run on a stable frequency. They must capture the data in less than a complete clock cycle. Which means half filled glasses. So when all clocks would synchronize downstream. We would get good filled glasses. We can do this by trying crystal to listen better downstream than upstream. The ferrite core will work against the stream which means the data that is sent will have more influence than the answer will have.

            • #197628
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              But doesn´t it makes sense to you also that:

              Regardless how the digital data arrives to the DAC it will be nullified in the DAC´s buffer. Here it will buffer the incoming stream and re-build/re-clock the signal again and send it to the analogue conversion step.

              So basically it will not matter what the bits looks like since it will be nullified in the buffer and re-recreated in the DAC anyway.

              The impossible task is to stop noise hitting that DAC clock though… No-one has ever been able to send a totally clean signal since it is of-course impossible since there is electronics involved.

               

               

            • #197629
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Well that doesn’t work correct than. This is tried with the Perfect Wave Dac 2. They called it the memory player. But still when you disconnect the ethernet after the data was loaded. The buffer sounded just as bad as with the connected ethernet. So there’s something not right.

            • #197630
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              But playing things from memory equals noise, processing noise, inside the DAC it self. You don´t want any processing going on unless you are able to separate that noise before the DAC step. This is what the Grimm Audio guys understand and are able to do. Even if they do up sampling inside their MU2 player they are still able to make sure that the signal is extremely clean when converted to analogue, which is very hard and costly.

            • #197632
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Thanks I will do some more homework! 🙂

            • #197633
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Here I will trust your knowledge about ethernet. Still the theorie could work. When we see what is happening in the network as a side effect. I was grabbing in my memory. Where we tested a R2R / NOS dac and some I2S dac’s. These dac work on an external clock which of course also can suffer and be influenced by noise as well.

              When the only thing that can cause for example dark sound is the DAC itself. And let me first tell there must be several kinds of noise of which at least a few aint the problem, because they are canceled. Everything is always very pure, the only thing that troubles is the dark sound. This must mean the data is due to jitter only half transferred to analog. For example half way the clock cycle.

              Then the question is why will this only happen after several hours and never immediately. Then it must be a clock that is slowly drifting and cutting data in parts and only convert half bits to analog.

              I think a clock will drift due to another clock that’s driving. This seem to be a clock in the ethernet system

               

               

            • #197635
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Yes, i agree. Your delayed dark sound makes no sense in my mind.

              The digital noise is rather associated with the opposite of “dark”, sort of :-).

               

            • #197636
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Note that for the DAC it is only ones and zeros in different combinations that it works with. There is no way that one certain aspect of the sound can be impacted, if its not part of the recording/data itself, since all the DAC sees are ones and zeros and try to recreate to analogue as good as it can.

              The digital part can only affect how precise the DAC can sound (depending on the noise) but not impact it actively to give a certain flavor/tonality of sound, based on some type of malfunction. The digital data is always perfect.

              So, if the tonality changes and becomes dark, then that must be on the analogue side of the DAC conversion (in my mind) since there is nothing in the digital data that tells the DAC to sound dark suddenly.

              It also doesn´t make sense in my mind that you suddenly get more noise into the DAC. Mostly because that usually won´t give a dark sound, from my experience at least. It would be another type of impact that we usually associate with noise (degraded DAC performance).

            • #197638
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Thanks! I will think about this deeply for the coming days.

              I just have done some test’s and processed some thoughts regarding noise aspects. My first thought is that when I only use switch mode power supplies. That there’s no trouble with dark sound. The sound is really not that good with switch mode power supplies, but there’s no trouble.

              Theoretically it could be possible that a high grade powersupply could magnify some sort of noise which  already came with the stream from elsewhere. Also the ethernet signal itself is some kind of noise for an audiosystem. When it becomes a really stable blockwave who says the DAC can handle that. In the end the audio clock runs at another speed when it would drift up towards the 25Mhz would be a problem.

              Well there are already much more toughts that I could write down, but I will give it some time first. Because many experiences still doesn’t fit. 🙂

            • #197639
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              One more thing. My current dac also plays for about 5 seconds after I disconnected the ethernet. The sound never changes at that moment. The DAC always keeps the same quality as which the buffer is filled.

              This is a really difficult thing to connect with the noise aspect

            • #197648
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Wait, could it be that your DAC starts some sort of action internally for temperature control or similar. Something that under “normal” circumstances wouldn´t really be noticed. But since you have suppressed the noise floor more than what they have even tested it in, probably 🙂 , the sudden raised noise floor by this (whatever it is doing) is actually noticeable in your application.  Just thinking out loud…

            • #197653
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Or from your PC streamer, which maybe makes more sense?

              This still wouldn´t make the sound dark, in my mind, but i have been surprised before… 🙂

            • #197654
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Good morning Tobias, Yes that is what I think as well, the PC. I remember that for a test I also chose my wired tablet as an output. It was dark as well, but also the television when using Netflix while connected with Toslink to the DAC. Also when using AES/EBU from my Pink Faun streamer to the DAC. The motherboard of the Pink Faun streamer was replaced 4 times, due to this issue. Also I2S is used and USB output. Those were all high grade audio modules.

              I also have a NAD M12 dac of which I replaced the stock VCXO clock with an ultra OCXO. The OCXO was fed by a Farad powersupply. When the NAD became dark back in 2019 I could switch off the clock and the sound didn’t change. So the NAD seemed to play on its TTL, but when I reconnected the clock after 45 minutes you could hear everything cleared up for a while.

              Also last week I built a completely new PC, Asus Prime, intel I5 with a Seasonic Fanless power supply which is a SPS, but a pretty good one. This PC is compared with my other PC which was built 7 months ago. It has a Seasonic as well, MSI motherboard and Intel I9 one of the very fast. They all suffer the same problem. In the near Future there will be a Farad ATX which shall replace a Seasonic. This Farad ATX will outperform the Pink Faun powersupply. Both are from the same hands.

               

            • #197655
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              But also when the DAC/ Streamer is connected directly to the Router. It will become dark. Even when a CD player is hooked up to the system, it will remain dark.
              There’s one thing they all had in common and that is the ethernet was connected to the system. Actually when I replace the Cat5e SFTP with CAT8 the problem will become worse. Also when I put a few powernet filters in the chain, the problem will become worse.
              Yesterday it seemed that even the AQvox switch was too much. The system went dark later in the evening. It cleared up after I had put the normal D’Link DGS108 back in the chain. Actually the AQvox and the DGS108 are the same switches, but the AQvox has higher noise reduction

            • #197658
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Hmm, are you saying that it even gets dark if ONLY the CD player is physically connected to the DAC?

            • #197660
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              In those day’s I didn’t suspect the ethernet yet. So it was most certainly connected

            • #197661
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              In my own amateur mind you shouldn´t have a PC connected in any way to anything related to your HiFi equipment. I know that you can do a lot of optimization and run software like audirvana and stuff… But i don´t think that will ever touch a good audio streamer, remote controlled from a mobile device, with really good attention to noise floor. The noise floor potential of an audio streamer is rather crazy and the moment you hook something up to it, you are just worsen its potential to send a clean signal to the DAC. A cd player don´t have the same potential since there are moving mechanical parts involved, which is not the case if you use a good WiFi extender, to a streamer (both with great power), for exampel.

            • #197664
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I have measured the PC parts in the Pink Faun streamer. Indeed they are not measuring good. It is still a PC.

              On the ohter hand when people listen to the sound it produces they still pick it above the GrimmS

            • #197667
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              In my situation I use a Jcat which has a galvanic isolation to the PC’s powersupply. It uses an external powersupply. Which is a Farad in my situation.

              Beside this. Still after 5 years. I would be the only one that has problems with these streamers. I also think I’m probably the only one with a very clean powernet, has a dedicated network for audio and upgraded each an every powersupply on the network

            • #197659
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Somehow I think my stream is too strong or some noise will be highlighted when other noise is cancelled or the network clocks are banging into the audio clocks.

              For the record. All my clocks are standard at the moment. No OCXO’s or whatsoever

            • #197663
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Due to the fact the AQvox became a problem. Which is connected between the Audio PC and the Streamer / DAC. I think the clock banging is the most logical explanation. Even more because even replacing the fuse in the Super 10 by a QSA Red will cause the same effect when using the normal switch.

              Still what I don’t get is when I connect several passive LAN  isolators in series to reduce the signal, which should be near perfect. That the sound will not only clear up, but it will also sharpen and lose strength, body, natural colors etc.  An explanation could be that the DAC must work hard to restore the weak signal

            • #197665
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              My advice is still to remove the PC from the equation and only make sure that your audio streamer (remote controlled)  is fed with the cleanest power and ethernet signal possible into the DAC. That is all that matters in my mind.

              I can see all sorts issues trying to handle a fluctuation in noise floor from an involved PC when we are at this crazy level of noise reduction. 🙂

            • #197668
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Wifi is not possible for me. I think I should stick with the current situation that works. It’s still on an incredible level. Really on top streamer levels. There seem to be limits in one of the parameters. I think it’s the clock banging.

            • #197670
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              One more note.

              Roon chose this track to play

              Watching the Waves (Acoustic Version) from David Gray.

              The Album GOld in a Brass Age (Ground Control Acoustic Sessions)

              The singer has an incredibly clear and natural voice. It’s just an internet stream

            • #197671
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Yes, but roon is fairly process heavy since it sends more metadata. Many streamers sound worse with roon then their native qobuz interface because roon makes the CPU in the streamer work just a little bit harder.

              These differences is mostly heard when you have a very low noise floor in your streamer.

              Grimm audio is roon only, and amazing, but they have obsessed in making sure that the CPU noise does not impact the DAC clock.

            • #197672
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Ideally you should also use the computer on WiFi, when using Roon, to remote control the streamer. Again, to keep the noise floor low in the streamer and not being influenced by a connected computer in the signal path.

            • #197673
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              My thinking is now that you might have an amazingly low noise floor since it sounds awesome. The trouble is that a PC is not a stable environment and its noise floor will fluctuate and therefor you get this issues when you have such a low noise floor to protect.

            • #197675
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes but also without the PC, a direct connection to the router causes the same problem. Same problem maybe as with the PC 🙂

              Well now I have to get into the car. I’m visiting some audio friends in Germany

              Have a nice weekend!

            • #197676
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Thanks Tobias for thinking with me!

              You just have brought a new idea to test. I will put the PC on another ground system. A PC is always leaking to the ground indeed. I have measurements of that. It’s fed by the Audes transformer at the moment. When I put it on the normal powernet and connect it with an Lan isolator. The ground systems will be separated.

              When I control Roon I always connect shortly to ethernet. While listening the control PC is not connected with the network.

            • #197674
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Yes, I know about that. I have used Euphony Stylus on the Pink Faun streamer and Roon Roon as well. Euphony was the best. Still probably due to the clocks. The CPU was running at 0.3% at only one core. Without the clocks it was 8% how do you figure 🙂

              I think a computer normally makes many mistakes.

            • #197678
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I read about the Pink Foun now to understand. Those are the type of streamers that you can´t influence very much because they have too much going on in them selves, in my opinion. It is like a computer with a lot of gadgets to achieve a low noise floor with a lot of unnecessary trickery, in my opinion.

              They have a certain noise floor, that is actually quite high, but then they solve that the last bit into the DAC step. That last step you can´t really influence much since it has its “fixed” lowest noise floor, which is higher than what you aim for.

              If you instead use a much simpler streamer, that doesn´t do a lot of trickery in itself but just has great silent components. Then I believe such a streamer has even higher potential to take care of an amazingly low incoming noise floor and forward it on to the DAC.

            • #197680
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I can almost promise you that LESS IS MORE in the digital domain. It is all about obsessing about noise and every unnecessary electronic component is better left out. I do understand that WiFi is a no-no for you but i really think that the alternative is that you always is going to have unnecessary heavy computing in your connected signal path, which is not ideal and very hard to completely clean up and stabilize.

            • #197728
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              I have built the Ferrite box and separated the RX and TX on their own core. This cause triple the effect of the cable solution. Passive Ferrite box

            • #197732
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Wow, you are the man!

            • #197733
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Thanks, Tobias 🙂

    • #197600
      TobiasTobias
      Deelnemer

      Thanks for sharing.

      The reason we can´t use the WiFi reciever in our equipment is that we don´t want an active antenna in our HiFi equipment and have data processing going on to convert that WiFi signal = noise.

      By separating the WiFi outside of our HiFi equipment into a device that can output a clean signal it is then enough to clean up that signal with the ferrit cores.

      The reason the ferrit cores are not working in other places, i believe, is that you then add electronics (noise) after them. The ferrit core need to sit right before the streamer since the output from that cable is really clean.

      • #197605
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Yes, but than it still should not become as worse as without ferrite cores at all. The ferrite core in the last section should still do that same trick (when it was about noise. It also should be audible at once and not 24 hours later). But as I mentioned the sound was dark after 24 hours. Just like it was without the cores

        • #197613
          TobiasTobias
          Deelnemer

          True, i can´t explain if it gets worse if the ferrit cores are early in the signal chain.

    • #197740
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Digital to analog

    • #197741
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      When people talk about jitter. I never really understood it. I’m not sure if this was meant, but I think that we should think in datawords and not in bits. In my system the sound becomes darker when I put real high grade power supplies on all my network equipment. The better the power supplies the darker the sound became. I think that due to the power supplies the signal became a lot better, but noise that was not related to the power section should be canceled as well. The above thing with the ferrite cores (on the TX and RX pair of the ethernet cable) was not my own idea, but it seems to work really great.

      Think about 8 glasses of water which stand for a byte. When there’s water in the glas it means 1. When the glass is empty this means 0. But what about when we have half filled glasses. These half glasses still fulfill the digital value ( so it’s bit perfect), but when you convert them to analog you will hear a different sound in comparison to the conversion of complete filled glasses. The higher the value in the byte the more effect it will have on the sound. Because the digital value of the byte will stand for the analog voltage. So when the DAC crystal can switch on its own terms not troubled by noise it will capture the complete data word. See it like this (picture) When the datawords are converted with a better phase than the music will sound less cropt.

      When the lines are less steep it means there’s less high frequency (it’s crop into a smaller frequency range). It’s only a theory, but the sound is much better :slight_smile:

    • #197744
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      The netgear box is the box with the ferrite cores. Its position is the last section where it enters the streamer. The Pink Faun isolator is used to separate the ground systems of the house and the Audes transformer

      Leads

    • #197747
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Many tanks to Tobias!

      Thanks for helping me figure things out. The level is insane! The sound is so pure and analog now. Details are clearly more tight and have more space. Its music in its purest form 🙂

      I’m probably just at 90% of understanding, but It seems I was way off track. The trouble is caused by the ethernet, but it happens on the DAC. I think the DAC crystal was slightly out of phase.

      • #197748
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        That sounds amazing. Thanks for the pictures also.

        I notice that you have your ethernet cables “naked” now, prior to the ferrit core and after. They guys on the German forum seem to suggest that the cable should be a short length and covered with ferrit clamps before and after the core.

        Is it because they have a WiFi extender close to the choke cable you think? Are they trying to cover the cable from that WiFi radiation or something?

        • #197789
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          I think that the core is suitable for 20 to 50 Mhz. The ferrite directly on the cable can do 100Mhz. So it’s additional. I have placed an order so I can build 5 more boxes. I also have ordered ferrite cable boxes. The cable that I have used is CAT5e SFTP. For cleaning the signal it would be better to use UTP, but it’s a choise. They both have their strong points.

          Also in my situation there is already very much done to prevent noise from the powersections.

          I will listen again tonight, but it’s so very clear that there’s only little to improve left 🙂

          • #197800
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            I actually had one of my all time favorite listening sessions this night. I have had my first cable choke for a while now (not optimized, just my first try without really knowing what i did…) but as you say Wijnand there is something so incredible pure about this. It really is like the DAC is now working as it is suppose to work. Pure joy with the music!

            • #197805
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Nice! Keep in mind that it could change after an amount of hours

            • #197830
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Yes, for me, that didn´t have such a low noise floor in the first place (not very expensive ethernet gear or power supplies for the switch), the improvements when i added the WiFi extender and the choke cable was insane. Like going from a cheap chip based dac to a good R2R dac, in an attempt to draw some sort of comparison. This was done in early January.

              This week it even got me into changing my amp/speaker combination to another one that i hadn´t used of a while. Suddenly that combination was my favorite, (my two setups are very different in how they deliver the sound).

    • #197783
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      <p style=”text-align: center;”>Hoi Wijnand, I was curious of course and it seemed you made big progress! I admire your perseverance, you are (always?) on fire! Also  a picture(s) is worth a thousend words, thanks!</p>
      Thanks also to Tobias for your input. Do you know if the double ferrit cage, as built by Wijnand, is based on the Muon pro or the previous filter? In what does the Muon pro differ?
      And what would be so special about the Network Acoustics noise rejecting cable design? I know Wijnand not to be convinced (any more) about higher end Ethernet cables but it seems NA and Eric (the sound of ethernet) found a beneficial synergy when using a passive filter WITH a special ethernet cable.
      Wijnand, how much I wish you could replace the switch with a clocked and LPS powered EtherRegen to find a difference in SQ.

      Thank you both for sharing!

      • #197784
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        As they say, it is really remarkable that this is not known broadly, in an ethernet context, when you think about how simple it is.

        That ferrit core ring is amazingly efficient when paired with a non shielded ethernet cable, it seems.

        I have no insight in the Muon at all but it makes sense to me that passive filtering should be used the last bit into the streamer, when you realize how incredible sensitive the DAC is for this noise. Any electronics or power supplies will result in noise, regardless of how expensive they are.

      • #197790
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        I’m not always on fire, for the hobby, but I can’t stand things that I can’t understand and still want or need to know. So I ran a double job for the past few years. One a real job and two the ‘hobby’

        You’re right, I’m not so convinced about higher end ethernet cables. I’m convinced that every cable sounds different and now I know that they all seem to cause or leave another type and / or amount of noise. Which actually causes the differences in sound. In my opinion higher end cables often cause a color change in the sound. This also was the case with the audioquest diamond.

        Normal cables in the different CAT’s are enough for me.

        About the ether regen I’m still very curious, but I always thought my Pink Faun streamer is a regenerator as well. Although I wouldn’t need the regen any longer, I’m still curious, who knows 🙂
         

        • #197831
          Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
          Deelnemer

          Hi Tobias,

          I want to add here that Network Acoustics advised me to put the Muon Pro just before my Bryston BDA 3.14, which is a DAC and streamer in one and internally the streamer is connected to the DAC board via I2S. The short cable that was fixed to the Muon, which was very light and you could squeeze it, went into the RJ45 port and my Audioquest Vodka cable from the Muon into my Bonn N8 switch. It gave the results as already mentioned. So NA probably believe too that it must be the last bit before the streamer.

          I should test it with the NA cable.

          Power supplies: you make me wonder how much noise leaks from my Audes power conditioner. It does a lot of good but probably it adds noise as well.

          It also makes me wonder if I should get rid of my Bonn N8 switch which is also fed by a (nice) power supply of course because strictly speaking it is not necessary for audio playback. NA believe you should keep a switch otherwise they would not sell one.

          Good debating and hands on researching here.

          Pieter
          <div id=”ConnectiveDocSignExtentionInstalled” data-extension-version=”1.0.4″></div>

          • #197832
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            Hi Pieter,

            This particular WiFi extender (TP Link TL-WR902AC V4), with Ian Canada battery power (as suggested by ERIC), seem to have such a low noise floor output that adding anything after the cable choke just makes it worse (the noise floor goes up), according to him.

            I can´t verify this claim myself but my feeling is that this combination might be even better than the muon pro (on its own) just because that WiFi extender has such a low noise floor output, in the first place, into the choke.

             

            • #197833
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I am sure you can probably get to the same low noise floor into the choke cable also using other methods. But having passive filtering the last bit make sense in my mind.

              It also makes sense that a WiFi extender could potentially have a clean output since it doesn´t inherit noise from the network, prior in the signal chain, since it is not physically connected to anything, at least.

            • #197880
              Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
              Deelnemer

              Hi Tobias,

              As a novice in this field I don’t fully understand how this extender device works in my audio set-up and where it should be connected. I do understand that the battery pack from Ian Canada renders it (and all other audio devices if connected?) passive and thus lowers noise floor. But the extender itself should further lower noise?

              Pieter

            • #197881
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Hi Pieter Claes,

              Since noise travel on the ground plane of the ethernet cables you wan´t to “airgap”, to brake the physical connection to all the devices that are in the ethernet path, prior to you HiFi equipment. By introducing WiFi you can start from a fresh clean ethernet signal, that only is polluted by the WiFi extender and its power supply.  This particular model seem to be able to put out a very clean signal, compare to most other WiFi extenders and is therefore suitable in this application. Now the cable choke has less noise to filter away, the last bit into the streamer. WiFi Extender (with clean power)->Cable Choke->Streamer is all that is needed.

            • #197968
              Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
              Deelnemer

              Thanks. Thing is that my streamer does not work with Wifi, only fixed cable, but I understand it a bit better now! Pieter

            • #197974
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Note that this is a ethernet cable solution into your streamer. WiFi is just earlier in the signal chain. The router will send WiFi to the WiFi extender that then sends the data using a normal fixed ethernet connection to your Streamer.

    • #197785
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, BlinkMacSystemFont, -apple-system, ‘Segoe UI’, Roboto, Oxygen, Ubuntu, Cantarell, ‘Open Sans’, ‘Helvetica Neue’, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;”>”this is not known broadly”</span>

      Agreed it’s not common knowledge, but I think we really need to unpack how passive filtering works. There are so many variables at play, especially when it comes to those ferrite cores. Eric, NA, and now Wijnand each have their own methods, and they’re all seeing impressive results in their setups. ENO and MUON pro have caught the attention of quite a few audiophiles too.

      Why stick with just single or double cores when we could experiment with triple, right?

      And there’s a whole bunch to consider with the type of cores, their sizes, and thickness. Plus, the number of windings is crucial. Just one extra winding can completely change how frequencies are affected.

      And what about those Cat5 cables? Do we wrap all the wires or just certain ones around the ferrite?

      It seems like using a passive filter with a special isolated Cat5 cable just makes the sound quality even better.

      And then where’s the best place to put that filter and cable combo?

      • #197786
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        Not sure if you saw it but here is Eric´s favorite choke cable right now and it should be the last step into the streamer:

        2m SLIM SL6A + 1 x Würth 74271111 + KEMET ESD-R-613325H-NC23 (8-fold winding) + 4 x Würth 74271222S (3-fold winding)

        • #197792
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Thats art 🙂

        • #198014
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          This winding patron is just wrong. With strong cores the problem is clear audible. I will show a better patron tomorrow 🙂

          • #198018
            paul vdwpaul vdw
            Deelnemer

            ”This winding patron is just wrong. With strong cores the problem is clear audible. I will show a better patron tomorrow”

            * Look forward to that, thanks for sharing Wijnand!!

            If you do not mind, a few questions came up. No rush.

            * Why did Eric choose a specific pattern for his favorite choke cable instead of your choice? Also keep in mind that Eric’s audio equipment isn’t as resolving as yours, far from it I would say. (actually this is more a question for Tobias, do you know about the chosen pattern maybe? materials? he mentions nanocrystals. Or did he improve on it since?)

            * Did you make any changes to the latest version of the core box? Are your friends already using it?

            * I’ve been thinking about isolation, specifically UTP vs. STP/SFTP. You’ve chosen SFTP on both ends of the core box, connecting all devices through the cable shielding and with a copper ground cable. server + switch + (choke cable?) +  router. Can you explain why you chose this and if you’ve tried (partially) UTP or without ground cable connected?

            * Regarding the cable shield at the server, typically it’s disconnected for better results, but you’ve done the opposite. Can you explain why, considering system dependence?

            • #198055
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              Hi Paul,

              I can’t tell why Eric choose that winding patron. Maybe he can answer that question 😉

              Yes, I made changes over and over. I tested so much.

              SFTP cat5e sounds just better in my system. I have tried at least 5 UTP versions. Also a CAT8 version, but the CAT8 clearly sounded worse (more woolly). I think CAT8 can transport noise better as well

              You can see in the picture that I don’t have a shield connection at the switch 🙂

            • #198094
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              I think ERIC is very measurement focused. Not sure if that is actually the most reliable method but i assume he listens as well. From what i understand 8 windings also has some scientific background, as well as being something he found in his measurements. (if i remember that correctly?)

              I know i saw them linking to a very mathematic/scientific document that went into details about similar logics, using ferrit cores, but for another use-case of course.

              Having said this, it is of course very possible that they have not tested things that Wijnand is now suggesting!

          • #198050
            WijnandWijnand
            Deelnemer

            This balanced winding patron prevents energy fields in the core. An energy field will create noise on the stream. On low quality cores its less important.

            20240326_180018.jpg

      • #197801
        paul vdwpaul vdw
        Deelnemer

        Wijnand, I would send you my EtherRegen anytime without hesitation so you can try. But there will be duties and taxes and expensive shipping coming from Canada. I know it’s me insisting but I wouldn’t be resisting if I can do without.  And I guess I hope it will help you find answers about the « half »  bits (with John Swenson you never know, he might be close to the answer).

        • #197806
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Thanks Paul, That is a really nice gesture. Let me think about it 🙂

        • #198017
          paul vdwpaul vdw
          Deelnemer

          🙂 🙂

      • #197983
        Pieter ClaesPieter Claes
        Deelnemer

        Oh there you go, didn’t realize that.

        I could try it with my Ferrum Hypsos power supply or would you only advise it with the Canada battery pack?

        Pieter

        • #197989
          TobiasTobias
          Deelnemer

          The Hypsos is likely similar to the IAN Canada, i am thinking. The IAN Canada solution is cost effective.

          It just needs to be 5v USB C, (or was it Mini(?), don´t remember)

    • #197788
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      The real challenge lies in identifying the common denominator among these setups. It’s about figuring out what elements in what configuration consistently contribute to better sound quality across different configurations. That’s where the real magic happens. Like the 8 windings possibly? I am out of time but I look forward to give it a try when I can.  Thanks for sharing.

      • #197793
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        I would say with noise suppression in all layers of the frequency spectrum that it must be there where the magic happens. But I still doubt the edges to build the bits in the data stream. Maybe good power supplies cause steep edges and cause noise because of that.

        For you both if you PM me. I can built a device for you as well.

         

    • #197802
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      I couldn’t resist 😉 , I made my first choke cable, very promising. I tried to share a picture with both of you but this site is really awkward and the most user unfriendly unfortunately (to me at least). No clue how to do that.

      Cheers!

    • #197829
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Today I have tried to take the core box another step up, but that seemed not that easy. I have tried some extra windings on the main cores. I have tried a second (smaller) cores per pair. I have tried copper tape to create internal shielding. I have tried aluminium foil in layers. I have tried EMI absorbers inside. I have added some cores on the output cable. It all has an effect.

      The internal copper tape shielding is a yes!

      The EMI absorbers are a Maybe

      The pair of smaller cores is a big NO! (A strong field inside the box was created)

      The aluminium foil is a no

      The extra windings on the main core is a no (because a stronger field is created)

      The external cores on the output cable is a yes!

      I will soon build a serie of 6 for some friends 🙂

       

    • #197848
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      This seems to work to upload a picture in the private section and then it can be used on the forum

       

      In this picture you see a balanced wound core. This core is even bigger than the ones I used before. From the JCat to the core the cable is shielded. In the core and behind the core the cable is unshielded. There’s a slieving around the cable. The core is filled with hot glue

       

      Bigger core

    • #197858
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      Interesting observations.

      What would be the IN and OUT dia of the new yellow core? Did you use in combination with the double core box? Or just the cable?

      Yellow core is the same size as used in the larger size and to you better double core? Is it 6cm OD as Eric used by any chance?

       

      Then maybe the MUON also has larger cores than its predecessor?

      What is JCAT doing, where? I have a hard time visualizing the total picture.

       

       

       

    • #197923
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      I’m working on a first non commercial batch of 5 core boxes. These are built after I have tried several prototypes.

      Core 1

    • #197925
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Core 2

    • #197926
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Core 3

    • #197927
      TobiasTobias
      Deelnemer

      once this gets viral you won´t have time for anything else ;-). Amazing work!

    • #197929
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      That would be nice. Than can work 4 days a week 😉

    • #197931
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      <span style=”color: #0d0d0d; font-family: Söhne, ui-sans-serif, system-ui, -apple-system, ‘Segoe UI’, Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; white-space-collapse: preserve;”>Congratulations to Wijnand! Would you mind sharing what you did? Which twisted pairs, what cores, why ferrites on the exterior cablesÉ Is the box just with andother choke cable?</span>

      <span style=”color: #0d0d0d; font-family: Söhne, ui-sans-serif, system-ui, -apple-system, ‘Segoe UI’, Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; white-space-collapse: preserve;”>Also, I’m curious, are you still in the 90% satisfaction range, or has it improved since then?</span>

      You can (almost) take a break this weekend and listen! Enjoy, and keep sharing please!

    • #197932
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      You must be tired, here is a clean message. I am writing from PC or tablet and it gets all weird. This should be easy on the eyes:

      <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, BlinkMacSystemFont, -apple-system, Segoe UI, Roboto, Oxygen, Ubuntu, Cantarell, Open Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif;”><span style=”font-size: 15px;”>Congratulations to Wijnand! Would you mind sharing what you did? Which twisted pairs, what cores, why ferrites on the exterior cables? Is the box just with another choke cable?</span></span>

      <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, BlinkMacSystemFont, -apple-system, ‘Segoe UI’, Roboto, Oxygen, Ubuntu, Cantarell, ‘Open Sans’, ‘Helvetica Neue’, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;”>Also, I’m curious, are you still in the 90% satisfaction range, or has it improved since then?</span>

      <span style=”color: #000000; font-family: Verdana, BlinkMacSystemFont, -apple-system, ‘Segoe UI’, Roboto, Oxygen, Ubuntu, Cantarell, ‘Open Sans’, ‘Helvetica Neue’, sans-serif; font-size: 15px;”>You can (almost) take a break this weekend and listen! Enjoy, and keep sharing please!</span>

      • #197938
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Thanks Paul, Yes I’m still very happy with the sound. I’m listening to all kinds of setups. So there’s not one particular answer to give on your question.

        For my setup there’s one thing that I really dislike and that is ferrite. When I add ferrite to the circuit then the sound is not that good. Ferrite blocks on the output cable have a certain impact ‘impedance’ like for example 200 Ohm at 100Mhz, but also for example 90 Ohms at 25 Mhz. Which means when there are several cores than also the normal data range is affected. I guess in systems with switchmode powersupplies and other devices that causes noise. Then ferrite could be better.

    • #197933
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      nope, sorry 🙁

    • #197934
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Just edit and remove the lines that are weird 🙂

       

       

    • #197935
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      Thanks, but there is no EDIT button under or above my messages, just REPLY. I am logged in though.

      I think I can only edit this (latest) message. I am doing that right now.

      I am active on several forums, usually I post messages, edit them and add images w/o any problem. I can not wrap my head around this site. At alpha Audio I am a big polluter! 🙁

      • #197940
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Well maybe I can build a filter for that 😉

    • #198053
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      The ultimate network. This clock brings extreme quality to music. In my network are 3 core boxes and one ultra switch. The coreboxes brought a major impact on the sound, but still the clock dubbels the impact. I have to wait at least 24 hours before I can say if the clock can stay in the network, because in the past it always dubbeled the network trouble as well. But when life music is played with this clock switch even the public applauding will bring goosebumps

    • #198072
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      Wow, you must be trippin’ Wijnand!

      Maybe comparable (in a limited way) since network switches seem to have an improving effect on SQ when you use them in series, but not so much in the long term I understand.  Curious how more than one “2 or 3? core boxes” will sound over time.

      You could call it the Wine&filter ;-). Wijnandfilter

      You have been sharing so much, I completely missed or forgot you use an internally PF clocked Dlink DGS-108 switch. Thats why I proposed the externally clocked eR in the equation (still valid though).

      The PF LAN filter is for other frequencies I suppose, and still essential.

      Great about using the interrupted shield at the server connection, I wasn’t sure. I think it is better to not share with the server. The plug could be replaced with a better quality metal shielded plug, not sure if that would be audible.
      But the ground drain wire is still inside the double choked SFTP from the 2 core box all the way to the server, correct?

      I find it all pretty amazing! Kudos for your perseverance.

      • #198079
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        There actually are two things of importance for audio networks.

        1. Noise

        2. Clock synchronisation

        Unfortunately those two are biting each other. Noise can be prevented by using high grade power supplies and or noise can be canceled by ethernet filters.

        When there’s almost no noise at the ethernet signal the blockwave will stabilize and push other devices with its stable signal. Other devices will slowly follow the rhythm of this stabilized stream. This means the clock of the audio device will synchronize (in a certain amount) as well to this stable signal, but the audioclock should not run at 25Mhz, it should run at 24.756Mhz. When the audioclock is out of phase the sound will darken.

        The winding patrons of cablechokes can cancel noise and it can cause or prevent clock synchronisation. The cleaner the signal the more important it is not to create induction at the signal. Induction will cause more explosive pulsations which will cause clock synchronisation.

        So the real deal is to create a noise free blockwave, but also preventing the network clocksignal to cause trouble.

        What I have done Yesterday with the Ultra clock switch was really incredible. But I must switch off this clock each time after listening. This will prevent the clock to stabilize. Really the first few minutes are on a level that you can’t even imaging even when you have heard it 🙂

        • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 2 dagen geleden door WijnandWijnand.
        • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 2 dagen geleden door WijnandWijnand.
        • #198090
          TobiasTobias
          Deelnemer

          Wijnand, what is talking against the fact that the noise reduction (filtering) is now just making your last DAC clock work perfect, since it is no-longer hit with “any” noise (there is always some level of noise)?

          Couldn´t it be that simple, that it is actually only about making the last clock, in your DAC, work as exact as possible?

          The other clocks are then actually not involved, from a clocking perspective.

          • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 2 dagen geleden door TobiasTobias.
          • #198098
            WijnandWijnand
            Deelnemer

            Yes, maybe it’s that simple, but how to achieve that?

            I think that the blockwave (stream) itself is already noise to a DAC

            • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
            • #198104
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              The cleanest possible signal into the last passive filtering must be the goal, i am thinking.

              A WiFi extender with clean power is one way that makes sense to me and apparently measure well, from a noise perspective. (I am not sure exactly how ERIC is measuring?)

              If WiFi can´t be used then i am not sure since everything on the connected network might add different types of noise that needs to be cleaned up by the last passive filter.

    • #198095
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      Hi Tobias, I’m aware that the clock at the switch has no importance from the timing perspective. Still, normal crystals are pretty noisy. The Ultra clock is one of the best in the world. It has phase noise levels above 130 dbv at 10hz. When you swap the crystal by this clock it’s clear in seconds. You feel almost like a life attendant at a concert. At first when the clock is still cold, the phase noise levels are not that good, but after a few hours it’s already much better and only after 48 hours it’s fully stabilized.

      In the first few hours it only gets better, until it decreases again after 6 hours. Slowly the DAC clock is pushed out of phase. This happens everytime when the stream becomes too clean.

      I think when the signal is weakened by the filters and edges become less steep due to smoothing then everything is okay. I’m really positive now that it’s not only about noise. A stream can get too stable as well and cause trouble to the DAC clock.

      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
    • #198100
      WijnandWijnand
      Deelnemer

      When the sound became dark (DAC crystal out of phase). I think it would make sense when I would give some examples.

      Adding a new linear powersupply will solve the problem for 4 days (until some level of break in is reached) . I have tried this at least 8 times 🙂

      Replacing a high grade powersupply by a less good powersupply. This prevents the crystals from synchronising, so the dark sound is solved, but it’s not the same as with the better powersupply.

      Replacing the ethernet cable will solve the problem for 2 hours. I have tried this more than 10 times.

      Adding CAT8 makes things worse. Adding noise by adding for example a switching powersupply somewhere in the network makes things better.

      Adding antennas to the ground system solves the dark sound, but on other levels is less good.

      Disconnecting the audio system for 8 hours, solves dark sound for 4 hours.

      Using less good power cables will solve the Dark sound (to some amount).

      Using a new power cable no matter where in the system will solve the problem for 48 hours (probably a certain level of break in) I have tried this at least 20 times.

      Adding powernetfilters like Kemp SNS or Furutech NCF clearline will cause dark sound

      I think I can give more than 50 other examples that suits my explanation 🙂

       

       

      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
    • #198127
      paul vdwpaul vdw
      Deelnemer

      Hoi Wijnand,

      First of all, I am no expert in clocking but it seems after all the variables you changed , you never changed the clock. You seem to use a “super” clock integrated in the switch, if I am correct? Is the clock sharing power with the switch?

      Also everyone in audiophileland swears by burned in cables and equipment, linear psu ea. but your results are better with new cables and smps. Without judgement, that is a quite remarkable observation. Imagine if you could have the common advantage of the former besides a stable DAC clock, best of both worlds…

      A few indepently powered clocks are recognised as being top, besides the PF you are using. For example Mutec ref 10 and the top range Afterdark clocks, would that be worth exploring, if you not have tried so? Could they offer some “stabilty”  that the PF can not deliver?

      I have been following the progress of a user on the other side of the planet with a PF 2.16 X ultra custom (3 Pink Faun OCXO Ultra clocks on processor, motherboard and USB PF card + externally powered by Paul Hynes DR7t+ ) server that maybe could help you sharing his point of view. I do not recall him at all mentioning a degrading effect over time. I wonder if I should connect the both of you?

      Wijnand trust me I am only trying to advance what you are up to without knowing what you are up to ;-).

      Food for tought.

      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door paul vdwpaul vdw.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door paul vdwpaul vdw.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door paul vdwpaul vdw.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door paul vdwpaul vdw.
      • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door paul vdwpaul vdw.
      • #198133
        TobiasTobias
        Deelnemer

        My suggestion is still to jump of the whole additional clock train, all together. All the naysayers are correct in one aspect: Digital is always perfect.

        The only thing that matters is how much noise/jitter you have in the DAC/Clock and how degraded that conversion step gets due to this incoming noise. (These are Hans B words, not mine of course)

        Since the filter solved the problem, it is clear to me that it cleaned up some sort of noise that you had from your gear, prior to the filter. I don´t know why the noise is getting worse after a while but i have to say that i am positive that it is noise, and not about crystal/shapes in the digital signal.

        The main reason to jump of the additional clocking train is the added complexity. It does seem to lower the noise floor so i am not saying it isn´t working, but it just presents a level of of complexity that muddies the water when trying to find the root issue.

        Just my two scents.

        And I am often wrong as well! 🙂

        • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door TobiasTobias.
        • #198136
          WijnandWijnand
          Deelnemer

          Hi Tobias,

          Of course you are right about the digital aspect 🙂

          But what if the signal itself is the carrier of data which is clocked at 25Mhz, while the dac runs at 24.576Mhz

          It actually seems pretty logical that making this 25 Mhz to stable and present that it can cause trouble for the DAC clock. This also happens without the special clock switch.

          The filter will smooth the blockwave in a more sinus looking wave, which has less steep edges. Think about this. Also that when I connect things that it sounds near perfect in the first hours. Normal noise would interfere at once.

          It’s a pity that a forum cant show actual sound. It starts at a very high level, for streaming terms better than I ever heard. It takes a system to a complete new level. Until the dark sounds kicks in.

          • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door WijnandWijnand.
          • #198138
            TobiasTobias
            Deelnemer

            What i have learnt is that it doesn´t matter what speed it is clocked at earlier in the signal chain since digital isn´t a continuous stream of data, across devices like that. The whole idea with digital, and why it is a genius format, is that the packages can come in whatever order and state they want. It will still be rebuilt perfectly in the last DAC according to its clocking capabilities, unless those capabilities are degraded by noise. There isn´t less job for that last clock just becuase the data arrives in “better shape”, it rebuilds it the same regardless of how it arrives. (as i understands it)

            • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door TobiasTobias.
            • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door TobiasTobias.
            • #198141
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              yes of course, but still I think we deal with two different aspects. One general noise related and one clock ‘noise’ related.

              The packages are send by a clock. They have a certain pace. No matter the order they are in.

              When I add a switching powersupplie to the switch. The noise problem became worse. This is audible, but the clock problem becomes better.

            • #198142
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              What do you mean by “Noise problem became worse” and “Clock problem becomes better”?

              How do you differentiate between them?

            • #198143
              TobiasTobias
              Deelnemer

              Could it be that the Switch Mode power supply is used on the same power line as your other hifi components. So that the SMPS noise is actually not coming from the ethernet/clock path but rather thru the powerline and pollute your other devices that route instead?

              • Deze reactie is gewijzigd 3 weken, 1 dag geleden door TobiasTobias.
            • #198146
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              No it doesn’t matter. it’s completely on another power source and ground system, but also on the same power source it has the same outcome

            • #198145
              WijnandWijnand
              Deelnemer

              There is an aspect where clocks seem to interfere (sound becomes darker), while everything else is still perfect. And there’s an aspect where the sound just decreases. Less good soundstage, less natural, more unstability, less insight, etc

      • #198134
        WijnandWijnand
        Deelnemer

        Good morning Paul,

        What makes you think I never have replaced the clock? 🙂 To keep it short the problem also appears without the clock.

        Indeed normally burned in cables would be better. Untill you will come to this certain level. It’s about the complete stream, when I only use one or two high grade power supplies then there’s no problem. This makes it better and there ain’t any issue at all, but when you take it a few levels up and use up to 8 Farad power supplies. Then the stream becomes too stable and clocks (even normal crystals) will interfere with each other, They probably will work together and the problem is born.

        I’m in close contact with the guys from Pink Faun and also the electronics designer. I also had 3 different Pink Faun streamers, actually four or five when I would count some modifications. I also had an audition of different ultra streamers with different specs. They wanted to know which I thought sounded best. I was pretty clear about my preference and they have followed that advice, which means one clock in the ultra streamer sounds better than more. This is about interference.

        In my own Pink Faun streamer I have tested one to 5 clocks. With only one clock it sounded better.

        For what concerns the powersupplie of the Pink Faun ultra streamer it’s really on a high level. But still every Farad power supply is superior. I think the Paul Hynes just makes enough noise to prevent problems with dark sound. Feeding the option modules with the internal powersupplie of the Pink Faun streamer solves the problem as well. Also the first edition Farad power supply brought less problems.

         

    • #198223
      William TurnerWilliam Turner
      Deelnemer

      I started with a no-name ethernet cable from my router to my streamer, and now i’ve ended up with the following.

      Incoming Fiber converter powered by an Sbooster with an Isotek Initium   –

      Siltech classic legend etherenet with a IFI network silencer into my Asus rt-ax82u also powered by an Sbooster with an Isotek Initium  –

      Siltech classic lengend ethernet from router to an ADOT MC03 with a Chord shawline dc chord to a Plixir elite bdc with an Isotek initium. –

      5m fiber cable from the ADOT to my Melco s100 also with the Chord shawline and Plixir with an Isotek Initium –

      Siltech Royal crown signature from the Melco S100 to my streamer.

      The whole network is powered buy a Isotek Aquarius ev0 with a Synergistic research purple fuse into the low outputs, the Aquarius evo 3 uses a Isotek Seguel evo 3 power cable into a Furutech ncf outlet which connected with gigawatt lc-y evo 3×4 installation cable with a Gigawatt 16a circuit breaker.

      Each and every piece of the puzzle made a significant difference.  I’m the type of person where if i THINK i hear a difference ,then it’s not acceptable , either you hear a clear difference or you don’t.   That’s just my 2 cents worth.

       

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