[Wijnand]

No it doesn’t matter. it’s completely on another power source and ground system, but also on the same power source it has the same outcome

[Wijnand]

There is an aspect where clocks seem to interfere (sound becomes darker), while everything else is still perfect. And there’s an aspect where the sound just decreases. Less good soundstage, less natural, more unstability, less insight, etc

[Wijnand]

yes of course, but still I think we deal with two different aspects. One general noise related and one clock ‘noise’ related.

The packages are send by a clock. They have a certain pace. No matter the order they are in.

When I add a switching powersupplie to the switch. The noise problem became worse. This is audible, but the clock problem becomes better.

[Wijnand]

Hi Tobias,

Of course you are right about the digital aspect 🙂

But what if the signal itself is the carrier of data which is clocked at 25Mhz, while the dac runs at 24.576Mhz

It actually seems pretty logical that making this 25 Mhz to stable and present that it can cause trouble for the DAC clock. This also happens without the special clock switch.

The filter will smooth the blockwave in a more sinus looking wave, which has less steep edges. Think about this. Also that when I connect things that it sounds near perfect in the first hours. Normal noise would interfere at once.

It’s a pity that a forum cant show actual sound. It starts at a very high level, for streaming terms better than I ever heard. It takes a system to a complete new level. Until the dark sounds kicks in.

[Wijnand]

Good morning Paul,

What makes you think I never have replaced the clock? 🙂 To keep it short the problem also appears without the clock.

Indeed normally burned in cables would be better. Untill you will come to this certain level. It’s about the complete stream, when I only use one or two high grade power supplies then there’s no problem. This makes it better and there ain’t any issue at all, but when you take it a few levels up and use up to 8 Farad power supplies. Then the stream becomes too stable and clocks (even normal crystals) will interfere with each other, They probably will work together and the problem is born.

I’m in close contact with the guys from Pink Faun and also the electronics designer. I also had 3 different Pink Faun streamers, actually four or five when I would count some modifications. I also had an audition of different ultra streamers with different specs. They wanted to know which I thought sounded best. I was pretty clear about my preference and they have followed that advice, which means one clock in the ultra streamer sounds better than more. This is about interference.

In my own Pink Faun streamer I have tested one to 5 clocks. With only one clock it sounded better.

For what concerns the powersupplie of the Pink Faun ultra streamer it’s really on a high level. But still every Farad power supply is superior. I think the Paul Hynes just makes enough noise to prevent problems with dark sound. Feeding the option modules with the internal powersupplie of the Pink Faun streamer solves the problem as well. Also the first edition Farad power supply brought less problems.

 

[Wijnand]

When the sound became dark (DAC crystal out of phase). I think it would make sense when I would give some examples.

Adding a new linear powersupply will solve the problem for 4 days (until some level of break in is reached) . I have tried this at least 8 times 🙂

Replacing a high grade powersupply by a less good powersupply. This prevents the crystals from synchronising, so the dark sound is solved, but it’s not the same as with the better powersupply.

Replacing the ethernet cable will solve the problem for 2 hours. I have tried this more than 10 times.

Adding CAT8 makes things worse. Adding noise by adding for example a switching powersupply somewhere in the network makes things better.

Adding antennas to the ground system solves the dark sound, but on other levels is less good.

Disconnecting the audio system for 8 hours, solves dark sound for 4 hours.

Using less good power cables will solve the Dark sound (to some amount).

Using a new power cable no matter where in the system will solve the problem for 48 hours (probably a certain level of break in) I have tried this at least 20 times.

Adding powernetfilters like Kemp SNS or Furutech NCF clearline will cause dark sound

I think I can give more than 50 other examples that suits my explanation 🙂

 

 

[Wijnand]

Yes, maybe it’s that simple, but how to achieve that?

I think that the blockwave (stream) itself is already noise to a DAC

[Wijnand]

Hi Tobias, I’m aware that the clock at the switch has no importance from the timing perspective. Still, normal crystals are pretty noisy. The Ultra clock is one of the best in the world. It has phase noise levels above 130 dbv at 10hz. When you swap the crystal by this clock it’s clear in seconds. You feel almost like a life attendant at a concert. At first when the clock is still cold, the phase noise levels are not that good, but after a few hours it’s already much better and only after 48 hours it’s fully stabilized.

In the first few hours it only gets better, until it decreases again after 6 hours. Slowly the DAC clock is pushed out of phase. This happens everytime when the stream becomes too clean.

I think when the signal is weakened by the filters and edges become less steep due to smoothing then everything is okay. I’m really positive now that it’s not only about noise. A stream can get too stable as well and cause trouble to the DAC clock.

[Wijnand]

There actually are two things of importance for audio networks.

1. Noise

2. Clock synchronisation

Unfortunately those two are biting each other. Noise can be prevented by using high grade power supplies and or noise can be canceled by ethernet filters.

When there’s almost no noise at the ethernet signal the blockwave will stabilize and push other devices with its stable signal. Other devices will slowly follow the rhythm of this stabilized stream. This means the clock of the audio device will synchronize (in a certain amount) as well to this stable signal, but the audioclock should not run at 25Mhz, it should run at 24.756Mhz. When the audioclock is out of phase the sound will darken.

The winding patrons of cablechokes can cancel noise and it can cause or prevent clock synchronisation. The cleaner the signal the more important it is not to create induction at the signal. Induction will cause more explosive pulsations which will cause clock synchronisation.

So the real deal is to create a noise free blockwave, but also preventing the network clocksignal to cause trouble.

What I have done Yesterday with the Ultra clock switch was really incredible. But I must switch off this clock each time after listening. This will prevent the clock to stabilize. Really the first few minutes are on a level that you can’t even imaging even when you have heard it 🙂

[Wijnand]

Hi Paul,

I can’t tell why Eric choose that winding patron. Maybe he can answer that question 😉

Yes, I made changes over and over. I tested so much.

SFTP cat5e sounds just better in my system. I have tried at least 5 UTP versions. Also a CAT8 version, but the CAT8 clearly sounded worse (more woolly). I think CAT8 can transport noise better as well

You can see in the picture that I don’t have a shield connection at the switch 🙂

[Wijnand]

The ultimate network. This clock brings extreme quality to music. In my network are 3 core boxes and one ultra switch. The coreboxes brought a major impact on the sound, but still the clock dubbels the impact. I have to wait at least 24 hours before I can say if the clock can stay in the network, because in the past it always dubbeled the network trouble as well. But when life music is played with this clock switch even the public applauding will bring goosebumps

[Wijnand]

This balanced winding patron prevents energy fields in the core. An energy field will create noise on the stream. On low quality cores its less important.

[Wijnand]

This winding patron is just wrong. With strong cores the problem is clear audible. I will show a better patron tomorrow 🙂

[Wijnand]

Well maybe I can build a filter for that 😉

[Wijnand]

Thanks Paul, Yes I’m still very happy with the sound. I’m listening to all kinds of setups. So there’s not one particular answer to give on your question.

For my setup there’s one thing that I really dislike and that is ferrite. When I add ferrite to the circuit then the sound is not that good. Ferrite blocks on the output cable have a certain impact ‘impedance’ like for example 200 Ohm at 100Mhz, but also for example 90 Ohms at 25 Mhz. Which means when there are several cores than also the normal data range is affected. I guess in systems with switchmode powersupplies and other devices that causes noise. Then ferrite could be better.

[Auteur]

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